State House bars openly carried guns in public gallery

sudden valley gunner said:

I didn't see anyone defending unlawful carry or muzzle sweeps.

I do see people blaming individual citizens for a loss of liberty not the people taking away the liberty.

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You have people denying that brandishing occurred even when there are pictures of it and even when some of them admit it happened.

By trying to protect this type of illegal behavior as OC when it never was OC, it will only push people to ban OC.

As to those fools who behaved like jerks on the 15th I hope you remember something: we've had lawful OC at the Capitol for years and years and it never got banned until you tried pretending that brandishing = OC and you got lucky enough that WSP didn't arrest you. My guess is you got used as "tools" by the Capitol Clerk who hates guns and wanted you to do that and probably told WSP not to arrest you unless you discharged so that this dumb rule change could occurr.

NavyLCDR said:

Did I miss people running and/or screaming in terror on all the coverage? I'm tired of people like you exaggerating and blowing things out of proportion. I'm surprised you didn't toss in "with their assault weapons" in there.

This is a case of give some people an inch and they take a mile.

1. The legislature could have made a rule that HANDLING firearms in the galleries would be considered using props to protest and that HANDLING firearms in the galleries would continue to be prohibited but WEARING a firearm on a sling or in a holster without handling it would continue to be allowed. But they didn't. They took their pound of flesh and banned all open carry.

2. The give an inch and take a mile is also happening on the "pro-gun" side by all the bad mouthing of the protestors going on by people who claim to be on our side.

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Actually I am in talks right now with both chambers' counsels on trying to get the rule changed to exactly what you specified.

The problem is is that thanks to WSP not arresting people for brandishing people are now assuming that what happened was lawful OC even when it wasn't. Also, you are being contradictory. Why would you even suggest a rule saying no weapons handling if you thought that handling weapons the way they did was part of legal OC? Sorry but you can't have it both ways.

So now WSP has screwed gun owners twice.

1. WSP failed to enforce 594 and now has given MDA and WAGR ammunition to claim that "see, we told you handing someone else a gun wasn't a transfer." So even when people finally begin to get arrested for it years from now WAGR will look back and point at the rally and then claim that "oh, remember WSP proved that wasn't true so anyone who got arrested for it later must have done something else" and they'll use it to blow smoke to deny any justification to repeal or edit the law.

2. WSP has refused to fully enforce 9.41.270 which has lead to people thinking that dangerous brandishing is part of OC and that we now have to have new rules to ban OC.

Alpine said:

You have people denying that brandishing occurred even when there are pictures of it and even when some of them admit it happened.

By trying to protect this type of illegal behavior as OC when it never was OC, it will only push people to ban OC.

As to those fools who behaved like jerks on the 15th I hope you remember something: we've had lawful OC at the Capitol for years and years and it never got banned until you tried pretending that brandishing = OC and you got lucky enough that WSP didn't arrest you. My guess is you got used as "tools" by the Capitol Clerk who hates guns and wanted you to do that and probably told WSP not to arrest you unless you discharged so that this dumb rule change could occurr.

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We could transfer machine guns in WA for years, and years and years, now we can't. Who do you blame?

How about short barreled shotguns? Can't own them anymore.

Who are you going to blame on the private sale ban?

NavyLCDR said:

And you can cite a post of mine where I stated that handling weapons the way they did was part of legal OC? I'll wait while the crickets chirp. What I have said all along and what I continue to say about my personal opinion regarding the appropriateness of their firearms handling is NO COMMENT.

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So have some guts and go on record about it, or you could just bash me for it again like you did earlier while claiming to have no comment on it....

For someone who has no comment on it you sure are content to defend them and put down people who don't appreciate what they did.

Dave_pro2a said:

We could transfer machine guns in WA for years, and years and years, now we can't. Who do you blame?

How about short barreled shotguns? Can't own them anymore.

Who are you going to blame on the private sale ban?

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This is different than all those things.

9.41.270 already made what they were doing illegal. But because WSP refused to enforce 9.41.270 people got confused and conflated illegal brandishing with lawful OC to the point where they think lawful OC needed to be banned. So your comparison fails.

Alpine said:

9.41.270 already made what they were doing illegal. But because WSP refused to enforce 9.41.270 people got confused and conflated illegal brandishing with lawful OC to the point where they think lawful OC needed to be banned. So your comparison fails.

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So you agree, WSP and the politicians are at fault.

Failure to enforce laws.
Over reaction and new rule passed.

The people violating 9.41.270 also are at fault, it's not as if they are mindless animals who can't be held responsible for their own actions. This was a 3 part failure.

Alpine said:

If you want to OC long guns, leave them strapped to your back, slung on your shoulder, etc. Brandishing them the way you did cost us a lot. WSP should have arrested you for a .270 violation. Their failure to enforce 594 wound up with the effect of the "I will not comply" rally making opponents of 594 look like idiots who were wrong when we were really right and MDA will now claim 'see we told you that handing someone a gun wasn't a transfer.'
Also, now WSP's failure to arrest you for .270 violations for unstrapping your long guns and brandishing them in an obvious excited fashion above your heads and waving them wildly will make the low-info voters who saw those pictures of you believe that brandishing = lawful open carry and start a whole new push towards an initiative on banning open carry.
All because of what you did and what WSP didn't do. $50 bucks says that within 2 years we will see a WAGR commercial of some sort for banning open carry with that picture of you guys in the gallery.

I have no problem with OC, and while I don't log gun OC I don't mind it as long as it doesn't turn into brandishing. You brandished.

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RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm—Unlawful carrying or handling—Penalty—Exceptions.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate and that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.
(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:
(a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;
(b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;
(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;
(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or
(e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.
[1994 sp.s. c 7 § 426; 1969 c 8 § 1.]

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First off, please explain how they were in violation of this law.
Do it point by point.
You have made a claim now back it up.


Second if you OC and scare someone you lose your CPL so you can only OC? This makes much sense.

NavyLCDR said:

I will go on record as saying that people like you, Alan Gottlieb and to a lesser extent Dave Workman agreeing with the anti-gun side doesn't do any good. You say the protestors hurt our cause...look in the mirror because your whining about it hurts our cause.

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*14
Good call.

Alpine said:

This is different than all those things.

9.41.270 already made what they were doing illegal. But because WSP refused to enforce 9.41.270 people got confused and conflated illegal brandishing with lawful OC to the point where they think lawful OC needed to be banned. So your comparison fails.

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If I recall correctly, didn't WSP state officially that they would not arrest for violations of I-594 for every witnessed instance of a "transfer?" If this is true, then the WSP has little credibility at this point.

I remain convinced that no LEA in WA will tempt the fates where I-594 is concerned, nor it seems, this alleged violation of a brandishing law. Why is this incident remaining on the front burner, it appears to be a non-issue for the WSP. I think the on scene cops were far more reasonable and knowing of what wuz really going on than those viewing from afar.

Freedom1Man said:

*14
Good call.

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I don't agree with the anti gunners that OC should be banned. I want to stop OC from getting banned because of people determined to make the public think that brandishing a firearm in your hands is somehow protected by law so then they will mistakenly try to change that law.

NavyLCDR said:

You are agreeing with the anti gunners about the behavior of the protestors in question. Even if you do agree with them about the protestors' behavior it does us no good to express that agreement in public - especially in the media like Alan Gottlieb likes to do. How many times have you seen/heard of an anti-gunner saying, "Stop that, you're making us look bad/hurting our cause" about another anti-gunner?

A well reasoned response would be, "The current laws and rules that are already in place are sufficient. IF the protestors violated the current law and/or rules, they should be/have been removed or arrested for doing so. I will neither defend nor condemn the protestors actions."

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Give me a break!

You are agreeing with the anti-gunners that the sky is blue.
You are agreeing with the anti-gunners that gravity exists.
You are agreeing with the anti-gunners that guns exist!

Seriously, stop that absurd argumentation.


Also, there is no middle ground on brandishing, you either think what those protesters did was legal OC or not. Silence\offering comment or position while simultaneously lambasting those who do not approve of violating the law is not helping anything. We have to draw the line at brandishing, because if we don't then we WILL lose OC completely over time if we attempt to claim that brandishing is protected by OC. In reality, you are playing right into the hands of WAGR, MDA and Bloomberg, so keep it up.

At least go on record and take a position. Either you think those protesters were lawfully OCing or not.

So, which one of you defending these protesters will go to the downtown Seattle Public Library and replicate their actions by holding a rifle above your head and getting pictures of it? After all, that's a protected activity, and SPD even told the library that they cannot ban openly carried guns. http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Guns-now-allowed-inside-Seattle-libraries-230599611.html

Put your money where your mouth is.

It is cowardly to not take a position on it but mock, insult and degrade those who have.

Alpine said:

It is cowardly to not take a position on it but mock, insult and degrade those who have.

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I think it is pretty clear that every member posting is taking a position. A position you don't like, so you mock, insult, and degrade those who do not bow down to you. Take a longgggg look in a mirror.

Mock insult and degrade. Hrm. Who has been posting and juvenile and immature meme pictures? Who has been actually using generic insults?

I think you have it backwards. But then it's clear you only see what you want to.

NavyLCDR said:

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Do I really have to even go get the others?


Are you even capable of remembering what you posted a few minutes ago?

Alpine said:

I don't agree with the anti gunners that OC should be banned. I want to stop OC from getting banned because of people determined to make the public think that brandishing a firearm in your hands is somehow protected by law so then they will mistakenly try to change that law.

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I have cited and quoted the law. Please explain how it was broken.

I am still waiting. If you cannot do so then you are admitting that you are wrong. No more no less.

Freedom1Man said:

I have cited and quoted the law. Please explain how it was broken.

I am still waiting. If you cannot do so then you are admitting that you are wrong. No more no less.

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It's been posted already. Holstered and slung OC is legal. Brandishing guns in your hands is not. If you doubt that then go recreate these idiots' display in the downtown Seattle public library and see what happens.

Alpine said:

Mock insult and degrade. Hrm. Who has been posting and juvenile and immature meme pictures? Who has been actually using generic insults?

I think you have it backwards. But then it's clear you only see what you want to.

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You have calling activists criminals, making accusations without evidence to back it up. A member who was in that party has twice explained that you are full of it, yet you continue with the assault on members and activists without just cause. You continue to throw temper tantrums because few see it your way, and make immature demands.

You bring the ridicule on yourself!

WalkingWolf said:

You have calling activists criminals, making accusations without evidence to back it up. A member who was in that party has twice explained that you are full of it, yet you continue with the assault on members and activists without just cause. You continue to throw temper tantrums because few see it your way, and make immature demands.

You bring the ridicule on yourself!

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Complete insanity. Not only was I there to witness these criminal acts, but even some of the idiots trying to defend this openly admit WSP asked some of the people involved to change what they were doing. That admission right there should have been enough but we still have people pretending that didn't happen, so I diagrammed it for you.

I think even if God himself told you that's what happened you would not accept it. You cannot be reasoned with.

That's fine, so go ahead and recreate their display and see what happens.

Why are all of you wasting your time posting here arguing with me when you could be out proving me wrong and doing what they did at your local library or city hall. If it's legal then go do it!