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State House bars openly carried guns in public gallery

sudden valley gunner

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So long as "the State" is guided more or less by majority desires of voters, our public conduct and how voters perceive it is never irrelevant.

Relevant to your point not mine.

Often the majority of voters don't even show up and things pass.

If we do not condemn bad conduct from those who claim to be within our ranks, then it is our own fault if the public and the public's democratically elected officials believe that such persons and their conduct actually represent the rest of us. If the choice is between permitting dangerous, provocative, disruptive conduct with firearms, or to ban all guns, I can't blame legislators for banning all guns. At least not unless I've made clear the false dichotomy and offer the proper, third course which is to ban dangerous, disruptive, provocative conduct (and impose proper penalties for same), while respecting the real right to carry a gun for self defense. NOT some supposed right to carry a gun to intimidate or disrupt, but the real right to carry a gun for self defense.

I don't view that guy who did those things as one of me. If you read my posts on this topic. I don't think much of the guy.

The real culprit is the state who infringes.

The state does not represent me or even the majority of people who reside there.

Yes, I know, legislators swear and oath to uphold the constitution. They are neither experts in the constitution nor in guns just like most here are not necessarily experts in Western Water Right law theory, or estate law, or two dozen other areas of law. It is the responsibility of law abiding gun owners to speak out against criminal, negligent, and just plain stupid misuse of guns just as moderate (or perhaps "real") Muslims need to speak out against terrorism, and the way real journalists speak out against the violation of rights by paparazzi or child pornographers.

I have no responsibility to speak out about the bad actions of others. Muslims/Christians and others have no responsibility to speak out against bad members who don't represent the majority. There is no responsibility to assuage the tyranny of bigots.

Sorry, but in the real world, sometimes theory gives way to practice. Either responsible gun owners speak out, or else the criminals and morons set our image for us. And that means sometimes we have to condemn those who claim to be own. We have to be careful to avoid eating our own over minor disagreements. But when conduct crosses certain lines, we have to condemn our own. It would be far better instead, to privately educate our own and persuade them against certain conduct before they commit it. But some are highly sensitive to any suggestion that we should care at all about public opinion.

So do you judge people who are not the same ethnic background as yourself as all bad if a few of them do something wrong?

I have stated for years our own worst enemy is other gun owners. Especially those who are so willing to compromise away liberty in the fear of loosing them all, often after stupid acts of an individual.

Education is key, but education needs to even stronger upon those are quick to act out on their prejudices.
 

utbagpiper

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Immigration + migration + cheating politicians + rich out of state donors/organizers + gov control of education

IDK man, blame a couple gun nuts if it makes you feel good

Hey, the game may be rigged up there. But you still don't have to engage in unforced errors. Make the other side earn it by cheating fair and square rather than handing it to them on a platter.

What ifs are always worthless. But what if the gun nuts had OCd in a perfectly safe, polite, legal manner without creating any disruptions at all? I'm not saying the gun grabbers won't make stuff up out of whole cloth. But why give them the material for free?

Maybe you are done for having been overrun by California and third world (normally these would be redundancies, but in this case I really do mean two different areas) refugees. I'm very sorry. Please keep them there or convince them that the pot heads in Colorado are much nicer than the religious nuts in Utah who won't let them even get a drink, much less a dubee.

Charles
 

Dave_pro2a

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Hey, the game may be rigged up there. But you still don't have to engage in unforced errors.
Charles

When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first thing to be bought and sold are legislators. --P.J. O'Rourke
 

utbagpiper

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Often the majority of voters don't even show up and things pass.

Then it should be quite a bit easier for a committed minority to swing the outcome of elections. Right?


I don't view that guy who did those things as one of me. If you read my posts on this topic. I don't think much of the guy.

Too bad. The media is doing its best to join you and them at the hip. HE/THEY are today's poster child of gun nuts in Texas and Washington State. It is not right nor fair. But it is...until we fix it.

The real culprit is the state who infringes.

Nice platitude. You can either engage in effective action to correct that, or live with the infringements while complaining about "the state."

The state does not represent me or even the majority of people who reside there.

Then it should be reasonably within reach to mobilize enough voters to change some legislative seats.

I have no responsibility to speak out about the bad actions of others.

Yes you do. Every bit as much as you have to speak out against the tyranny of "the state". Those who will not counter bad actions or evil with at least words are tacitly condoning the bad actions. Whether committed by a few well meaning but misguided individuals, those with overtly evil intents, or "the state" claiming to act on behalf of others, matters not at all.

Muslims/Christians and others have no responsibility to speak out against bad members who don't represent the majority.

Most Christians disagree with you. I'm not sure what most Muslims believe because so few seem to speak out.


There is no responsibility to assuage the tyranny of bigots.

If one doesn't define himself, he cannot complain if others do not understand him. No one should lie about me or any groups to which I belong. But some will lie. I can correct and define myself, or I can live with letting others define me wrongly. Whatever should be, this is what is.

So do you judge people who are not the same ethnic background as yourself as all bad if a few of them do something wrong?

No need to inject race. If all I see from some group of which I am not a member is bad conduct, then it is tough not to let that become my image of the group. Whether that group is democrats, journalists, athletes at any level from high school on up, Hollywood types, atheists, inner city residents, environmentalists, etc.

If the image of these groups is not accurate, then members of those groups need to speak up and correct the image.

I have stated for years our own worst enemy is other gun owners. Especially those who are so willing to compromise away liberty in the fear of loosing them all, often after stupid acts of an individual.

Gun owners are often our worst enemies. But as bad as the letter to the editors that start "I own guns, but..." can be, the public conduct of a few morons swinging rifles around and loading them is many orders of magnitude worse.

And in 20 years, I've never given up any liberties on RKBA save possibly one concession that churches don't have to post a signs on their buildings in order to legally ban guns. In those same 20 years I've help craft many a "compromise" where I accepted less than everything I wanted, but got more than I had and gave up nothing.

If you want to compare actual legislative records, I'm game. Very few outside Utah can claim better success than I or my group can over the last 15 years.

If we are just throwing platitudes around, just say so. No need to waste my time.

Education is key, but education needs to even stronger upon those are quick to act out on their prejudices.

I can't force education on others except by taking seats away from politicians. It is a same that so many who claim to be one of us, refuse all efforts at education on how to be most successful politically. Image matters. Politicians don't wear suits because they love them. They don't refrain from yelling "F you" because they are inherently better people than others. They carry breath mints for a reason. Image matters when dealing with people which is all politics is.

I can't do much for the truly bigoted. I can help the honest and true avoid developing bigotries by accepting the responsibility to define my self rather than letting a hostile media use the worst example of gun owners they can find to define me.

I've said my peace. And I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone, just trying to offer some hard earned lessons up to those who might benefit. Last words are yours if you want them. If I can be of help, PM me.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Well, I would say that being unwilling to call a spade a spade in your own state is at least better than calling a spade a spade from two states away. Or were you there at the Washington State Capitol? And can I ask what makes you an expert in Washington politics from Utah?

Not a thing. But I saw the video of their conduct. I read some of the statutes they possibly violated. I can't imagine their conduct is appropriate or even legal anywhere in this nation. Do correct me if you folks up in Washington think what they did was just fine.


Less offensive, but conduct in the same genre happened here for several years delaying our ability to pass protections for OCers against false charges of disorderly conduct. I'm sorry to see you suffer such worse consequences than just a delay in making progress.

And I see that you've now become frustrated enough with me that you're pulling the "you're not from here so you don't know nothing" routine (a from of ad homimem), rather than addressing the actual issues. So I'll leave you to it.

As Fred Reed recently wrote, You can ignore bad conduct. But you can't ignore the consequences of bad conduct.

Charles
 

Dave_pro2a

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Not a thing. But I saw the video of their conduct. I read some of the statutes they possibly violated. I can't imagine their conduct is appropriate or even legal anywhere in this nation. Do correct me if you folks up in Washington think what they did was just fine.

Charles

Was a law broken?

Was someone harmed?
 

utbagpiper

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I haven't seen the video. Is it posted somewhere in this thread?

Someone posted a link in one of the multiple threads here which is discussing the situation. I believe it was the same post of a first hand report of magazines being inserted and bolts being cycled (or charged) very visibly and loudly.

I'm sorry, but I'm not even going to offer to go find it for you. My google-foo on this site is very weak.

This was no more of an OC event than a beheading is as Islamic event. It was a blatant display of the kind of grossly unsafe, disruptive, brandishing, and flat out wrong gun handling that were it done by cops in uniform, we'd be mocking for months. It is a shame the morons (or agent provocateurs as the case may be) can so easily get so many on our side to give silent assent to such conduct just by claiming it was a pro-RKBA OC event.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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Someone posted a link in one of the multiple threads here which is discussing the situation. I believe it was the same post of a first hand report of magazines being inserted and bolts being cycled (or charged) very visibly and loudly.

I'm sorry, but I'm not even going to offer to go find it for you. My google-foo on this site is very weak.

This was no more of an OC event than a beheading is as Islamic event. It was a blatant display of the kind of grossly unsafe, disruptive, brandishing, and flat out wrong gun handling that were it done by cops in uniform, we'd be mocking for months. It is a shame the morons (or agent provocateurs as the case may be) can so easily get so many on our side to give silent assent to such conduct just by claiming it was a pro-RKBA OC event.

Charles

Well if you are going to make comments based on it, it kinda ruins your credibility if you refuse to post it in this thread. I am not making the claims on it, you are, I have no inclination to back up your claims. That is your task.

And if we lambast cops without cites we get a hand slapping.
 
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utbagpiper

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Was someone harmed?

So its ok for me to point a gun at you, and even pull the trigger so long as you are not actually harmed?

Don't be dense nor obtuse. You've made clear you are not going to condemn these guys.

It appears Bloomberg himself could pull this stunt and as long as he announced it was a pro-RKBA OC event, you'd refuse to condemn him it seems.

If Washington doesn't have some laws dealing with what we'd refer to as brandishing in the vernacular, then you've got bigger problems then just California refugees.

Charles
 

Silvertongue

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My comment on the Bearing Arms article.

"If you are going to openly carry a long gun, the only smart reason to do so is political speech.*

Political speech is a wonderful and very serious thing that should be taken seriously. Think of what you would wear to dinner with your significant other's family to announce you're getting married, think of how you would present yourself, add a margin of error of 2 style points, and that's how you should present yourself.

*You noticed an asterisk and read this far. Good. What that sentence represents is purely my opinion, but my opinion is based on a certain fact that I researched: I can draw a holstered handgun and place rounds on target faster than I can even present a SAFELY AND PROPERLY SLUNG long gun. If the average defensive gun use lasts three seconds and it takes you 2.9 seconds to get on target, you're behind the curve and staying there."
 

Dave_pro2a

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So its ok for me to point a gun at you, and even pull the trigger so long as you are not actually harmed?

Don't be dense nor obtuse. You've made clear you are not going to condemn these guys.

It appears Bloomberg himself could pull this stunt and as long as he announced it was a pro-RKBA OC event, you'd refuse to condemn him it seems.

If Washington doesn't have some laws dealing with what we'd refer to as brandishing in the vernacular, then you've got bigger problems then just California refugees.

Charles

Srsly Was someone harmed, was a law broken?
 

Dave_pro2a

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If Washington doesn't have some laws dealing with what we'd refer to as brandishing in the vernacular, then you've got bigger problems then just California refugees.

Charles

Are you saying that a law was broken? That the folks attending the State Senate meeting were 'brandishing?'

If yes, care to postulate why the law was not enforced?
 

utbagpiper

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Well if you are going to make comments based on it, it kinda ruins your credibility if you refuse to post it in this thread. I am not making the claims on it, you are, I have no inclination to back up your claims. That is your task.

And if we lambast cops without cites we get a hand slapping.

I think there is a difference between refusing and declining. I've not made some wild ass claim out of the blue and told you to search the whole of the internet. But, I'm not going to spend a bunch of time searching for a link for you from within the Washington State area just because you've not kept up on the discussion.

I'm really sorry, I assumed you were asking sincerely to go see for yourself. I now suspect you are simply using the rules as some kind of hammer to beat those who post something you find disagreeable. I've given you enough that if you are sincerely interested, you can go find it, and then quibble over my interpretation, or the credibility of the first person account, or going silent, or whatever else has to be done at that point other than just saying, "I hate to admit it, Hardy, but you're right on this one. The conduct is indefensible."

Now, tell me how sacred requests for citations are, accuse me of personal attacks or imparting evil motives, or being overly sensitive I am, and then have a very nice evening.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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I think there is a difference between refusing and declining. I've not made some wild ass claim out of the blue and told you to search the whole of the internet. But, I'm not going to spend a bunch of time searching for a link for you from within the Washington State area just because you've not kept up on the discussion.

I'm really sorry, I assumed you were asking sincerely to go see for yourself. I now suspect you are simply using the rules as some kind of hammer to beat those who post something you find disagreeable. I've given you enough that if you are sincerely interested, you can go find it, and then quibble over my interpretation, or the credibility of the first person account, or going silent, or whatever else has to be done at that point other than just saying, "I hate to admit it, Hardy, but you're right on this one. The conduct is indefensible."

Now, tell me how sacred requests for citations are, accuse me of personal attacks or imparting evil motives, or being overly sensitive I am, and then have a very nice evening.

Charles

You are demanding we condemn people with no proof other than claims of their acts. Decline all you want, if you can't substantiate it I throw the bull stuff flag. Surely a statesman like you understands not making claims without evidence.
 

utbagpiper

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Are you saying that a law was broken? That the folks attending the State Senate meeting were 'brandishing?'

From my reading of the relevant statute (not labeled brandishing) in another thread here in the Washington area, and from I saw in the video posted there, and as a couple folks have defended the conduct as an appropriate use of guns to intimidate the state, I believe that at least one law, and a whole lot of safety rules were broken.

Do you believe safety rules were not broken?

If yes, care to postulate why the law was not enforced?

Depends. Is some assjack going to turn around and demand "citations" or might it be accepted as mere opinion and conjecture?

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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You are demanding we condemn people with no proof other than claims of their acts. Decline all you want, if you can't substantiate it I throw the bull stuff flag. Surely a statesman like you understands not making claims without evidence.

If you are not interested enough to go look at the full discussion, then you are not really interested enough to be involved.

And surely an expert such as yourself understands fully how rules are used as a weapon. 90% of what legislature do they do under various forms of suspension of the rules because a constant invoking of the rules shuts down all work. When you make clear you are demanding citations simply to tie up my time looking for what every high sophomore knows to be true, or that you can find just as readily as I on this very site, you are not being sincere. It is one of three threads within this State section. Use your tracking skills and go find it if you are interested.

Throw all the flags you want. Someone recently observed there are no winners or loser here anyway and how stupid it is to claim to have won or lost.

Do have a nice evening.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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If you are not interested enough to go look at the full discussion, then you are not really interested enough to be involved.

And surely an expert such as yourself understands fully how rules are used as a weapon. 90% of what legislature do they do under various forms of suspension of the rules because a constant invoking of the rules shuts down all work. When you make clear you are demanding citations simply to tie up my time looking for what every high sophomore knows to be true, or that you can find just as readily as I on this very site, you are not being sincere. It is one of three threads within this State section. Use your tracking skills and go find it if you are interested.

Throw all the flags you want. Someone recently observed there are no winners or loser here anyway and how stupid it is to claim to have won or lost.

Do have a nice evening.

Charles

I am interested to see the video to back up your demands.
 
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