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Thread: Pistol purchase permits, but no conceal carry permit

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    Pistol purchase permits, but no conceal carry permit

    Been hovering over this forum for about a year, lots of good info here. I recently wanted to start conceal carry, so I got a couple pistol purchase permits, bought a couple new Smith & Wesson's, went to the CCW class and turned in my application at local sheriffs dept. Was notified by email a couple days later my conceal carry was denied. What I don't understand is, they allowed me to purchase pistols, and know it's a open carry state but won't allow me to conceal it. Kind of frustrating as I really wanted to conceal to protect myself and family when we are out and about. Especially when my and the wife are out on the motorcycle a lot in the summer. My reason for denial was a class A1 misdemeanor a few years back. I have 3 boys, 21, 18, and 15 year old. At that time my youngest was VERY bad in school, grades were crap, always in trouble for "goofing off" in class and so on, I lost my temper one night and he ended up with a mark on his face, which I didn't notice right away but the school did the next day. So basically I had to go to court because the officer I talked to said he was going to charge me (no arrest) basically hitting my child, found guilty and had 1 year probation, paid a fine. But now, it's haunting me to get a ccw permit. I looked into getting it expunged, but all the reading I'm doing online says an A1 misdemeanor you can not. So I guess my only option is OC. Unless anyone has any ideas to share with me on this. As far as OC on a motorcycle, anyone here doing that? Thanks for any info or help in this.

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    Regular Member dmatting's Avatar
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    I OC on my motorcycle all the time. I live in the dreaded county of Durham, too. There are many who don't have a CHP and carry daily without any problems.

    As far as contesting the sheriff's decision, you have the option to go in front of a district court judge and get the sheriff's decision overturned (NCGS 14-415.15(c ))

    The problem isn't that you got a misdemeanor, its that it was a crime of violence. See NCGS 14-415.12(b)(8)

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    Did you report the misdemeanor on your application? I have known several people who have gotten permits with minor/non felon crimes on their background. The sheriffs office WILL deny you if you omit information on your application. And that will usually happen much quicker than being denied by Raleigh, which sounds like your case.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatting View Post
    I OC on my motorcycle all the time. I live in the dreaded county of Durham, too. There are many who don't have a CHP and carry daily without any problems.

    As far as contesting the sheriff's decision, you have the option to go in front of a district court judge and get the sheriff's decision overturned (NCGS 14-415.15(c ))

    The problem isn't that you got a misdemeanor, its that it was a crime of violence. See NCGS 14-415.12(b)(8)
    If they are solely going by that charge as a domestic violence conviction he would not have gotten the PPP. And possibly he would be questioned as to owning any guns, as it is illegal to possess firearms with a DV conviction. I see no reason that he cannot get a DV expunged, people have misdemeanors all the time expunged. It will not be cheap though. If I was him until he gets this cleared up he should not carry at all a modern firearm. It is legal though for a person to possess a antique firearm even with federal disabilities. They tried to pass a law a few years back making carry of a antique firearm the same as carrying a firearm. I am not sure if it passed, I don't think it did, but he should do some research before even carrying a antique firearm.
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    I had gotten two pistol purchase permits in October of 2014, in November took the ccw class. I don't recall saying or answering anything on either ppp or ccw forms about my misdemeanor, may have not read the ?'s correctly. But why allow someone to purchase handguns but not conceal them? That's what gets me. I will probably call a lawyer and ask about getting it expunged. And at the time I decided to apply for the ppp, I figured if they allow me to get those, I should be good to go on the CCP and that my mishap a few years back didn't matter.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikogto View Post
    I had gotten two pistol purchase permits in October of 2014, in November took the ccw class. I don't recall saying or answering anything on either ppp or ccw forms about my misdemeanor, may have not read the ?'s correctly. But why allow someone to purchase handguns but not conceal them? That's what gets me. I will probably call a lawyer and ask about getting it expunged. And at the time I decided to apply for the ppp, I figured if they allow me to get those, I should be good to go on the CCP and that my mishap a few years back didn't matter.
    You are not asked about convictions on PPP, you are asked on CHP application, this explains why you were CHP denied, but not PPP. You failed to disclose any arrests and their outcome. Before taking this further you should contact an attorney. If your conviction does not put you in the disabled class, then appeal, and provide your arrests and convictions in the appeal process.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 01-22-2015 at 10:13 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Did you report the misdemeanor on your application? I have known several people who have gotten permits with minor/non felon crimes on their background. The sheriffs office WILL deny you if you omit information on your application. And that will usually happen much quicker than being denied by Raleigh, which sounds like your case.
    Under administrative law, information sought on an application, if not relevant, should not be used as a basis for denial as the law does not allow the collection of irrelevant or immaterial information.

    ? is : is it irrelevant or immaterial?

    I have been in conversations with my local issuing authority as to what information the issuing authority can require. And that information (or lack of information) that should not be used against an applicant. Ex: my local authority wants to know your employer - yet how is this relevant (the issuing authority agreed on this point); parking tickets/speeding tickets - Are these relevant? etc. So the next question beyond what is junk information that they are seeking (and are they seeking information just to "catch" an applicant in a "lie"?) but that the issuing authority should inform the applicant what is required information and what is not; that way to omit a speeding ticket is not grounds for denial. Its really and administrative law matter in my viewpoint ~ one does not need to complete "their application" in my state to get a permit although most sheep do.

    So the question that the OP needs to examine is if the crime he committed (and he was found guilty - so he's guilty; I don't need to hear an explanation) bars him from a permit or can bar him from a permit. He does not provide the statue he was found guilty of so its impossible to examine at this time. If his crime was something that cannot bar him from obtaining a permit, then its an immaterial fact and its omission is irrelevant.

    The OP's application and what he completed is important - he may wish to re-file a new application and include objections and argument to various queries. I have not seen his completed application so this may be another route to examine ~ start the process over again.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    He is in NC, not where you are, and for now it is a legal question. The application also makes it clear that lying or omitting will be reason for denial. Since a permit is a privilege, and not a right, the state can set the standards as they see fit. It is even written into the NC constitution, and probably will stay there.



    Sec. 30. Militia and the right to bear arms.

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    He is in NC, not where you are, and for now it is a legal question. The application also makes it clear that lying or omitting will be reason for denial. Since a permit is a privilege, and not a right, the state can set the standards as they see fit. It is even written into the NC constitution, and probably will stay there.



    Sec. 30. Militia and the right to bear arms.

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice.
    A form can say anything ... does not make it so. Admin law still prevails IMO.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    A form can say anything ... does not make it so. Admin law still prevails IMO.
    Well apparently it is so in North Carolina! Must meet the law by properly submitting an application. The OP did not properly submit one, the application process is written into the law.

    Maybe you should come to NC and represent him, wait you don't have a license to practice law do you?
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 01-22-2015 at 11:18 AM.
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    Did you answer "Yes" or "No" to question 11i on Form 4473 where you purchased your pistols at?
    Last edited by NC-Heel; 01-22-2015 at 06:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatting View Post
    I OC on my motorcycle all the time. I live in the dreaded county of Durham, too. There are many who don't have a CHP and carry daily without any problems.

    As far as contesting the sheriff's decision, you have the option to go in front of a district court judge and get the sheriff's decision overturned (NCGS 14-415.15(c ))

    The problem isn't that you got a misdemeanor, its that it was a crime of violence. See NCGS 14-415.12(b)(8)
    More dreaded than Orange County?
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    DV is a complete constitutional violation and you're screwed

    There is no exception in most states for DV convictions. You can move to Wyoming, or contact your Reps and Senators and get the law repealed, it does seem to be unconstitutional.
    But you can be in legal jeopardy now just being in possession of one or more firearms since they NICS check by the dealer failed to detect the conviction. If you purchased from a private indifvidual both of you are in violation of Title 18 922
    (d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—
    (1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
    (2) is a fugitive from justice;
    (3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
    (4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
    (5) who, being an alien—
    (A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
    (B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));
    (6) who [2] has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
    (7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
    (8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that—
    (A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and
    (B)
    (i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
    (ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
    (9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NC-Heel View Post
    Did you answer "Yes" or "No" to question 11i on Form 4473 where you purchased your pistols at?
    I answered "no", I don't believe it was classified as "domestic violence"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Macklin View Post
    There is no exception in most states for DV convictions. You can move to Wyoming, or contact your Reps and Senators and get the law repealed, it does seem to be unconstitutional.
    But you can be in legal jeopardy now just being in possession of one or more firearms since they NICS check by the dealer failed to detect the conviction. If you purchased from a private indifvidual both of you are in violation of Title 18 922
    (d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—
    (1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
    (2) is a fugitive from justice;
    (3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
    (4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
    (5) who, being an alien—
    (A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
    (B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));
    (6) who [2] has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
    (7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
    (8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that—
    (A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and
    (B)
    (i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
    (ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
    (9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

    I also emailed the sheriffs dept, and asked them about it, and after sending her the case info she replied "You are eligible for a purchase permit and you may possess a pistol but you are not eligible for a concealed handgun permit based on this charge." Not to mention my first pistol purchase was in October at Gander Mountain, the second purchase (at gander mountain) was in November. So I have filled out 2 4473 forms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikogto View Post
    [ ... ] So basically I had to go to court because the officer I talked to said he was going to charge me (no arrest) basically hitting my child, found guilty and had 1 year probation, paid a fine. [ ... ] A1 misdemeanor you can not. [...]
    Of what, precisely, were you found guilty, not the arrest cause, not the charge, but the judgement?
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikogto View Post
    I answered "no", I don't believe it was classified as "domestic violence"

    § 50B-1. Domestic violence; definition.
    (a) Domestic violence means the commission of one or more of the following acts upon an aggrieved party or upon a minor child residing with or in the custody of the aggrieved party by a person with whom the aggrieved party has or has had a personal relationship, but does not include acts of self-defense:

    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...hapter_50b.pdf


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    Quote Originally Posted by nikogto View Post
    I answered "no", I don't believe it was classified as "domestic violence"
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...,d.aWw&cad=rja


    Form 4473 .... [hopefully ]

    IMO though, if you are a freeman, your RKBA is there...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post

    § 50B-1. Domestic violence; definition.
    (a) Domestic violence means the commission of one or more of the following acts upon an aggrieved party or upon a minor child residing with or in the custody of the aggrieved party by a person with whom the aggrieved party has or has had a personal relationship, but does not include acts of self-defense:

    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...hapter_50b.pdf


    Thanks Grape ... I don't think the OP actually cites the statue that he was convicted under though ...which is OK, he does not have to I guess but it leaves us to assume it was domestic violence.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Thanks Grape ... I don't think the OP actually cites the statue that he was convicted under though ...which is OK, he does not have to I guess but it leaves us to assume it was domestic violence.
    Nor did I presume to do so. Still the shoe would seem to fit.
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    This is what the sheriffs dept emailed me if this helps clear previous ?'s. This is also what I emailed the sheriffs office when she told me I was able to own a firearm, just not a ccp.:

    County: IREDELL Case #: 2011CR 053153 Served: 05-13-2011
    Crt Date: 07-07-2011AM
    Attorney: WAIVED - WAIVED
    Offense: 01 M MISDEMEANOR CHILD ABUSE General Statute: 14-318.2
    Offense Date: 05-04-2011 Offense Class: A1 Prior Record Points: 00
    Disposition Date: 07-07-2011
    Plea: GU GUILTY Verdict: GU GUILTY Mod: JU JUDGE
    Fine: 100 Costs: 162 Sentence Type: C COMMUNITY
    Confinement: 060 DAYS Credit Time Served: 000 Days
    Probation: 012 MONTHS SUPERVISED
    Probation Length: 012 Location: M
    Special Conditions: 20 INSTL FEE;NOT TO USE CORPORAL PUNISHMENT;NOT TO ASLT/
    THRTN/HRS VICTIM.04/26/12 TRANS TO UNSUPV PROB.WAIVE $40.00
    PSF FOR APRIL 2012.
    ** SUCCESSFUL RETURN **
    * END OF MESSAGE *

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    North Carolina General Statutes

    § 50B-1. Domestic violence; definition.

    (a) Domestic violence means the commission of one or more of the following acts upon an aggrieved party or upon a minor child residing with or in the custody of the aggrieved party by a person with whom the aggrieved party has or has had a personal relationship, but does not include acts of self-defense:

    (1) Attempting to cause bodily injury, or intentionally causing bodily injury; or

    § 14-318.2. Child abuse a misdemeanor.

    (a) Any parent of a child less than 16 years of age, or any other person providing care to or supervision of such child, who inflicts physical injury, or who allows physical injury to be inflicted, or who creates or allows to be created a substantial risk of physical injury, upon or to such child by other than accidental means is guilty of the Class A1 misdemeanor of child abuse.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    I guess I'm SOL for ever getting a CCW permit anywhere. OC it is when I need protection and CC on my property or business.

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    I would engage an attorney. I see from your above that it appears that you defended your abuse charge pro se, "Attorney: WAIVED - WAIVED" always a mistake, particularly for a businessman.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikogto View Post
    I guess I'm SOL for ever getting a CCW permit anywhere. OC it is when I need protection and CC on my property or business.
    YOU really, really, really need to consult a lawyer! You may be treading on thin ice with concern to federal laws. If your conviction is considered DV conviction you are not allowed to possess firearms by federal law. If you are investigated by the feds for some reason you may find yourself charged with a felony. As much as it sucks you should limit yourself to non firearms for carry until you have clearance from an attorney. If your wife is not disabled to posses a firearm, then have her carry. Until then stick with a knife, or even a antique revolver(cap and ball) or find out the hard way.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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