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Thread: State Bill Aims To Ban Citizens From Taking Guns To Church

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    State Bill Aims To Ban Citizens From Taking Guns To Church

    State Bill Aims To Ban Citizens From Taking Guns To Church

    A bill that proposes to ban the carrying guns in church in Alabama. Violators could face a Class C misdemeanor with up to 3 months in jail and up to $500 in fines.


    http://www.local12.com/news/features...ch-23887.shtml

    "Larry Burch is against the bill. "No matter if it's a Southern Baptist, Jewish congregation or others, they all have the right to defend themselves against extremists," Burch said. The Republican Chairman of the House Public Safety and Homeland Security Committee Randy Wood says the group will give the bill a fair shake. However, Woods doesn't know how people would feel about legislating private entities, like churches. "
    I am not a lawyer, I study the history of gun control laws.

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    Seems like an infringement of the free exercise of religion to me. On what basis does the State presume to make certain objects illegal in all Churches, regardless of whether any church wants such items banned?

    There are well known religions for whom the carrying of a weapon is a religious obligation.

    It is easy to imagine that a congregation in most any church might determine they want to allow or even encourage the possession of defensive weapons at their meetings. This law would prevent it? Clearly, and church that wanted to allow arms would be able to get such a law overturned fairly quickly.

    At the very least, to withstand 1st amendment claims, such a law must allow churches to permit arms if they want to.

    I believe a better policy is to permit arms, unless the church gives notice in some reasonable way that arms are banned.

    Ideally, the law should not single out guns or any other prohibited item at a church for any special penalties. Let basic trespassing laws or even "hate crime" (if conduct is deliberate and targeted to harass, intimidate, etc) laws handle the rare cases of someone taking a gun into a church contrary to the church wishes. Ditto for someone who takes a ham sandwich into a synagogue or mosque, or alcohol into a mormon church, etc.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    Quick, put up a no firearms sign at all churches so no islamist(s) shoot the place up! or wait, isn't murder illegal?

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    I don't think it's a "religious obligation" but I know about 15 men in our church who would be somewhere else on a Sunday morning, if they put up a no gun sign. Out of about 275 men, women, and children.
    I don't think we are too far away from seeing our first open carry, I know it is being discussed some among the carriers. I'm sure that there are some unaware, some that would disapprove, and some that would freak out. It's time to liven up the service a little I say. Give the little old lady gossipers something new to cackle about.......

    What next? Gonna outlaw rattlesnakes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    [ ... ]What next? Gonna outlaw rattlesnakes?
    Little Old Ladies would.

    I was drinking a beer with an NPS friend on his stoop in Pinnacles NM in California where I was rock climbing. A LOL huffed up hysterical about a rattlesnake a mile away and that needed to be killed. We walked back to see that it was safely gone.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    These must be state owned churches right? Surely they wouldn't dare meddle in a private churches business.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    SNIP...I believe a better policy is to permit arms, unless the church gives notice in some reasonable way that arms are banned.

    Ideally, the law should not single out guns or any other prohibited item at a church for any special penalties. Let basic trespassing laws or even "hate crime" (if conduct is deliberate and targeted to harass, intimidate, etc) laws handle the rare cases of someone taking a gun into a church contrary to the church wishes. Ditto for someone who takes a ham sandwich into a synagogue or mosque, or alcohol into a mormon church, etc.

    Charles
    While you make a valid point, the proposed law should be thrown out entirely on the basis that private parties should be able to decide whether they permit or prohibit (legally-carried) firearms on their private property, thus rendering the proposed law moot.

    As always, I appreciate how well you illustrate your point with examples.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 02-05-2015 at 04:42 AM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Allow me to suggest some wording to use in amending the bill - taken straight from the Code of Virginia:

    § 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

    (Code 1950, § 18.1-241; 1960, c. 358; 1962, c. 411; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)
    Self defense/defense of innocent others has been accepted in case law as both a good and a sufficient reason.

    Some churches ask that you carry concealed. Others ask if you will be staying for the repast in the social hall after the service is over.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Allow me to suggest some wording to use in amending the bill - taken straight from the Code of Virginia:



    Self defense/defense of innocent others has been accepted in case law as both a good and a sufficient reason.

    Some churches ask that you carry concealed. Others ask if you will be staying for the repast in the social hall after the service is over.

    stay safe.
    Umm or oppose the bill wholeheartedly because there's no justification for passing even the proposed amended version...

    The government should not regulate the possession of firearms in churches. If a church wants to prohibit carry, then that particular church should prohibit carry, through whatever means are required by church bylaws (for instance a majority vote)..

    Who is proposing this ridiculous bill, and what are their reasons?
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 02-05-2015 at 08:08 AM.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Umm or oppose the bill wholeheartedly because there's no justification for passing even the proposed amended version...

    The government should not regulate the possession of firearms in churches. If a church wants to prohibit carry, then that particular church should prohibit carry, through whatever means are required by church bylaws (for instance a majority vote)..

    Who is proposing this ridiculous bill, and what are their reasons?
    That's an excellent query. And the possible reasons may help you at election time to oust the folks who supported the bill.

    I routinely ask for records to learn just what you have queired .... example of a response of a currently pending request was:


    I am responding to acknowledge your freedom of information request received via a voice mail directed to Senator Chapin regarding SB 75. We are working on a response and will notify you when the public records are ready.



    Regards,



    Jennifer Macierowski

    Chief Counsel and Director of Research

    Senate Minority Office

    (860)240-8848


    Why do this ?

    Simple. On election day one could go to the polls and tell voters about a person's 2nd amendment stance; however, this is not effective. So you have to find something else, a subject that electors are more willing to switch their vote over.

    The subject could be many things ... so choosing a subject to talk about at a polling place depends on what information you have to talk about and then choosing one that you can support (emails that a member of the GA wrote himself is best) with numerous documents and getting out their on election day and campaign against that particular member.

    But you have to get this information first .... its laborious work and takes patience and time ... but I can usually find a subject to discuss at the polls that voters will respond to...and at least get a dialog going with a voter prior to him voting. It also makes you more informed of the member so that you can intelligently respond to a voter's questions and be nimble enough to respond to their feedback and choose more than one subject to discuss with the voter. I usually only talk about one subject -- if I get positive feedback that the voter may change their vote, then I don't go into other subjects that the voter is more happy with regarding the person I am campaigning against. Its better to know when to shut up than when to speak.

    So I would suggest a quick search on the bill and provide records requests to individuals you think are behind the bill. I have filed foia requests with every member of a committee numerous times if its a committee bill...time, effort.

    And I have had good results affecting elections....

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