davidmcbeth
Banned
Ball and chain load?
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Trying to teach my girlfriend to shoot.
- Thread starter Lanesd9ve
- Start date
Ball and chain load?
Lanesd9ve
Regular Member
What are YOU using them for?
Some people consider me to be an expert in self-defense and firearms, and I would never use a 3" shell in my personal defensive shotguns.[/Q I'll UOTE]
MAC702 I use them mostly for hunting. Deer, coyotes, things like that. That and maybe when SHTFlol
Since you brought that up, what would be a good home defense load? I'm always open to suggestions and others opinions on what they recommend.
Okay, certain hunting applications might use a 3", sure, when power or payload is more important.
But for defensive purposes, control of the firearm is far more important. Same reason most of us are carrying non-magnums in our self-defense pistols, many of us aren't using magnums in our defensive shotguns. Additionally, for shotguns with a tubular magazine, using 3" shells will probably reduce your capacity by a round, though this is lower on the priority list.
What exact payload you should use depends on many factors, especially longest probable engagement distances, skill level, and presence of innocents behind what kind of cover. Never accept an answer from someone whose advice came when they didn't even know the details. Remember that for the vast majority of self-defense scenarios, the actual power of the firearm is not the factor that stopped the fight.
Lanesd9ve
Regular Member
I completely understand what you mean. I use to have some 2-3/4 birdshot (can't remember the exact load), but I shot all of it up a while back rabbit hunting lol I seen earlier someone suggested a lower recoil shell. I do worry about it going through the drywall of our house now, as my girlfriends parents lost their house due to a financial hardship so they moved in with us a week or so ago until they can get the house back. But say a low recoil 2-3/4 #5 shell? Our house isn't too big, probably furthest defensive length would be maybe 20 feet?
Firearms Iinstuctor
Regular Member
There are many reduce recoil loads out there I use these with real gun shy people they don't fee well but then they don't scare people who are shy.
http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/12_GA_ Mini-Shell_shot.html
http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/12_GA_ Mini-Shell_shot.html
sraacke
Regular Member
This thread is full of Win. Some great discussion and I want to add a bit more since we are talking about shotguns.
While 12 guage is always poplular for home/self defense, I've seen a shift in the past 5 years or so toward 20 guage shotguns. Why 20 instead of 12? For exactily what we are discussing, lower recoil and weight.
Many instructors, Rob Pincus being one of the more popular, have looked at the students in their classes and realized that many are simply not able to comfortably fire a 12 gauge even using the reduced recoil rounds. After researching the matter they are finding that dropping down to a 20 using either 00 buckshot or even slugs doesn't really put a homeowner at less of an advantage. A 20 is still very capable of delivering shots that will do the job. It is a better option in most cases than using a 9mm handgun.
Before purchasing a 12 guage shotgun, take a little time to look at a 20 guage version of the same gun and the ammo availble for it. I know that as I get older and deal with injuries and old joints that never gave me problems years ago I start to appreciate the value in something like a 20 guage shotgun.
While 12 guage is always poplular for home/self defense, I've seen a shift in the past 5 years or so toward 20 guage shotguns. Why 20 instead of 12? For exactily what we are discussing, lower recoil and weight.
Many instructors, Rob Pincus being one of the more popular, have looked at the students in their classes and realized that many are simply not able to comfortably fire a 12 gauge even using the reduced recoil rounds. After researching the matter they are finding that dropping down to a 20 using either 00 buckshot or even slugs doesn't really put a homeowner at less of an advantage. A 20 is still very capable of delivering shots that will do the job. It is a better option in most cases than using a 9mm handgun.
Before purchasing a 12 guage shotgun, take a little time to look at a 20 guage version of the same gun and the ammo availble for it. I know that as I get older and deal with injuries and old joints that never gave me problems years ago I start to appreciate the value in something like a 20 guage shotgun.
Lanesd9ve
Regular Member
This seems interesting, I might try these out. Would it feed right in a 870 Tactical pump? I see it says it will work in Remington and I don't see a reason that it won't. But I know my shotgun says 2-3/4" and 3" shells, I guess I could manually feed one even if for some reason it doesn't feed right.
Lanesd9ve
Regular Member
Sraacke, great point! 20 gauge slipped my mind completely and I just shot one a few days ago. I may look into getting her a 20 gauge for our "anniversary" I guess you could call it lol You saved me the hassle of trying to think of something. Now if I can just remember what day it is 
lol
lol
sraacke
Regular Member
Here is an article about considering the 20 gauge from gun guru Massad Ayoob
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob120.html
While we're on the subject, there are other factors to consider if another shotgun is being considered.
One of the most common and dangerous combinations of mixing ammunition occurs with owners or groups with both 12- and 20-gauge shotguns. If a 20-gauge shell is accidentally put into a 12-gauge shotgun, it will slide into the barrel ahead of the chamber and stick there. If you didn't notice that happen, and then load a shell behind it, you will blow up your gun and parts of you. Notice that all 20-gauge shells are yellow, to help you notice not to do this.
I see little need for the 20-gauge. It's continued existence is because of its past popularity. 12-gauge shells are found in very light loadings now, and action type makes a huge difference as well.
Indeed, a gas-operated semi-automatic 12-gauge probably has less felt recoil than a pump-action 20-gauge, or they will be close enough that you should just stick to one shell size for the family. And there are some REALLY nice recoil pads out there now, too. $50 for a Kick-Eez is worth it.
One of the most common and dangerous combinations of mixing ammunition occurs with owners or groups with both 12- and 20-gauge shotguns. If a 20-gauge shell is accidentally put into a 12-gauge shotgun, it will slide into the barrel ahead of the chamber and stick there. If you didn't notice that happen, and then load a shell behind it, you will blow up your gun and parts of you. Notice that all 20-gauge shells are yellow, to help you notice not to do this.
I see little need for the 20-gauge. It's continued existence is because of its past popularity. 12-gauge shells are found in very light loadings now, and action type makes a huge difference as well.
Indeed, a gas-operated semi-automatic 12-gauge probably has less felt recoil than a pump-action 20-gauge, or they will be close enough that you should just stick to one shell size for the family. And there are some REALLY nice recoil pads out there now, too. $50 for a Kick-Eez is worth it.
Primus
Regular Member
Winchester PDX1 Slug & Buckshot Combo 12 Gauge, W…: http://youtu.be/xFd-PJV6Fhc
I use this in a Mossburg 500 pump. Yes it hurts after about 20 shots. But those 10-15 shots are on target and if I need to reload my shotgun 4 times in a gun fight I have some serious problems.
This set up works because I know my house lay out and where the kid will be and wife (as much as you can know anything) if a late night visitor shows up. I doubt (haven't tested it) that even the slug portion would pass through interior then exterior walls then INTO a neighbors house so not worried about over penetration.
Only advice I can truly give is try a few things but once you pick one TRAIN with that one. To include your wife. Training can overcome damn near anything.
I use this in a Mossburg 500 pump. Yes it hurts after about 20 shots. But those 10-15 shots are on target and if I need to reload my shotgun 4 times in a gun fight I have some serious problems.
This set up works because I know my house lay out and where the kid will be and wife (as much as you can know anything) if a late night visitor shows up. I doubt (haven't tested it) that even the slug portion would pass through interior then exterior walls then INTO a neighbors house so not worried about over penetration.
Only advice I can truly give is try a few things but once you pick one TRAIN with that one. To include your wife. Training can overcome damn near anything.
cloudcroft
Campaign Veteran
I've seen those Aguila Minishells but have never tried them. According to some reports, those "shorties" don't cycle in some shotguns (meaning the main 3 -- Winchester, Remington and Mossberg) but I forget which of those 3 has issues. Some people say they work fine, even in "problematic" shotguns. The only way to be sure they cycle in your particular shotgun is to get a hold of some of them and try.
If they DO cycle in one's gun, then besides the low-recoil you also get increased magazine capacity, which is definitely a plus. And you can fit more of them into an ammo pouch, too, so you can carry a bit more ammo than you could of the normal-length shells. Or be able to get more of them into your car's ammo-box (mine are 2 Ft. Knox Pistol Boxes).
Sometimes the mini-shells are hard to find, but I see presently MidwayUSA has some. I'll probably get a box myself just to see if they work in any (or all) of MY 4 shotguns. Without even trying, I KNOW they'll work in 2 of my guns as 1 is a single-shot (H&R Topper) and the other a Savage 311 double-barrel. Unfortunately, since these 2 guns have no magazines, the short length of the shells (so you can get more into a magazine) isn't applicable, so no advantage is gained here. But the advantage of lower-recoil AND carrying MORE ammo in the same space (ammo pouch) as normal-length shells still remains.
[And I hope that shooting a shorter length shell in a longer length chamber does not cause any "erosion" issues...it MIGHT if you shoot a lot of them, but a few it shouldn't]
As for my 2 Mossbergs (500 "Cruiser" and 590A1 Mil-Spec) I can only load them and see if they'll chamber and eject without getting hung up -- probably won't though, from what I've read/heard so far: There's some "modification" to the shell carrier/lifter you can do in a Mossberg if they do NOT cycle properly, but I don't want to change anything from OEM stock (even though said mod doesn't effect using normal shells) so won't do that. In that case, I'll just keep them for use in the H&R and Savage only. On the MidwayUSA page showing this ammo (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/25...-3-4-4-and-1-buckshot-11-pellets#ReviewHeader), it says that both Remingtons and Mossbergs need some modifications to get these to work properly. Winchester 1300 shotguns seem to have NO issues with mini-shells.
Still, I KNOW they'll work for 2 of my 4 shotguns, so I can get at least one box of them at least. But for the most part, I'll be staying with my Fiocchi low-recoil normal-length shells (00 Buck and 1-oz Slug ammo) for my 2 Mossbergs as they won't cause any cycling issues.
Even if the Minishells worked MOST of the time in the Mossbergs, that's not good enough for home/self-defense use -- they have to work ALL the time. ;-)
If they DO cycle in one's gun, then besides the low-recoil you also get increased magazine capacity, which is definitely a plus. And you can fit more of them into an ammo pouch, too, so you can carry a bit more ammo than you could of the normal-length shells. Or be able to get more of them into your car's ammo-box (mine are 2 Ft. Knox Pistol Boxes).
Sometimes the mini-shells are hard to find, but I see presently MidwayUSA has some. I'll probably get a box myself just to see if they work in any (or all) of MY 4 shotguns. Without even trying, I KNOW they'll work in 2 of my guns as 1 is a single-shot (H&R Topper) and the other a Savage 311 double-barrel. Unfortunately, since these 2 guns have no magazines, the short length of the shells (so you can get more into a magazine) isn't applicable, so no advantage is gained here. But the advantage of lower-recoil AND carrying MORE ammo in the same space (ammo pouch) as normal-length shells still remains.
[And I hope that shooting a shorter length shell in a longer length chamber does not cause any "erosion" issues...it MIGHT if you shoot a lot of them, but a few it shouldn't]
As for my 2 Mossbergs (500 "Cruiser" and 590A1 Mil-Spec) I can only load them and see if they'll chamber and eject without getting hung up -- probably won't though, from what I've read/heard so far: There's some "modification" to the shell carrier/lifter you can do in a Mossberg if they do NOT cycle properly, but I don't want to change anything from OEM stock (even though said mod doesn't effect using normal shells) so won't do that. In that case, I'll just keep them for use in the H&R and Savage only. On the MidwayUSA page showing this ammo (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/25...-3-4-4-and-1-buckshot-11-pellets#ReviewHeader), it says that both Remingtons and Mossbergs need some modifications to get these to work properly. Winchester 1300 shotguns seem to have NO issues with mini-shells.
Still, I KNOW they'll work for 2 of my 4 shotguns, so I can get at least one box of them at least. But for the most part, I'll be staying with my Fiocchi low-recoil normal-length shells (00 Buck and 1-oz Slug ammo) for my 2 Mossbergs as they won't cause any cycling issues.
Even if the Minishells worked MOST of the time in the Mossbergs, that's not good enough for home/self-defense use -- they have to work ALL the time. ;-)
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WalkingWolf
Regular Member
I make my own using .32 ball. Simply buy target 12 ga. Remove pellets, replace with ball. Re crimp.
Pellets are then melted to be cast as .32 ball.
Pellets are then melted to be cast as .32 ball.
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cloudcroft
Campaign Veteran
I've done that with .69 caliber musket balls, but I hope to be getting some cast Lee 1-oz slugs from a guy on Calguns.net (if he still is making them). Eventually, I'll get the mould and cast some myself.
Just not doing any reloading presently so the Fiocchi low-recoil Buck & Slugs will do for now.
Just not doing any reloading presently so the Fiocchi low-recoil Buck & Slugs will do for now.
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Lanesd9ve
Regular Member
I would like to try using a light recoil shell but my girlfriend is terrified of my 870. She said no matter she will not use it even if someone broke in, which really makes me mad and worried more. We might go out and let her pick a 20 gauge out, nothing fancy but something that she isn't afraid of. I now understand what you guys mean when you say that teaching a significant other is a bad idea. She says that she doesn't matter what happens she won't use my shotgun, and has no interest in learning how to use a handgun other than what she wants. This really makes me mad that she doesn't care to learn to protect herself. I tell her constantly that anything could happen at any time.
She gets on to me when I carry my pistol just around the house, within reach when I'm showering, answering the door, etc. She doesn't understand that threats can appear at any time. I compare it to deer hunting, they come when you least expect it and bam there they are right in your face. You're adrenaline pumps so hard you have to make split second decisions.
I really appreciate all the info from you guys. I'll see if I can post a pic of my 870 so y'all can get a better look at why she's afraid of it. Most people see it and think it's a cannon lol
She gets on to me when I carry my pistol just around the house, within reach when I'm showering, answering the door, etc. She doesn't understand that threats can appear at any time. I compare it to deer hunting, they come when you least expect it and bam there they are right in your face. You're adrenaline pumps so hard you have to make split second decisions.
I really appreciate all the info from you guys. I'll see if I can post a pic of my 870 so y'all can get a better look at why she's afraid of it. Most people see it and think it's a cannon lol
Lanesd9ve
Regular Member
That's my 870 on the right, along with my pistol on the bottom left. The other two guns are some of my buddies where we went and shot.
sraacke
Regular Member
Statistics show that 100% of home invasions happen at home.
Be Prepared to Repel Invaders.
Remember, Pants on, Gun on. If you are dressed your pistol should be holstered to your hip.
Be Prepared to Repel Invaders.
Remember, Pants on, Gun on. If you are dressed your pistol should be holstered to your hip.
cloudcroft
Campaign Veteran
Lanesd9ve,
Well, if she stands by her decision that a shotgun (in your case, the 870) is out of the question (even though it's a shame, and even though it may only be for now) there are still many other guns she could use.
As another member mentioned above, a semi-auto .22LR rifle/carbine like the Ruger 10-22 is plenty lethal, not just for kids defending the home, or women intimidated by recoil of larger calibers, but for use by us MEN, too. For specific example, MY 22 semi-auto rifle of choice is a Marlin M60 (the OTHER of the 2 top 22LR semi-auto rifles available for DECADES now): 18 rds in the tube (probably CCI's Velocitors), hardly ANY recoil, and EASY to make a head shot with. As many times as necessary. And a .22LR definitely WILL go through someone head (avoid glancing angle/shots of course)...maybe won't come OUT, but WILL go in. That's fine as it's all you need. I don't know ANYONE who wants to get shot, even with a .22LR. And not MULTIPLE TIMES with one, either! In their head or elsewhere. ;-)
I also have a stainless-steel Ruger Mk-III bull-barrel 22LR pistol: THAT is easy to shoot and hit with, too...so a pistol she can carry AND easily shoot is a good possible choice.
As for getting your GF onboard for home/self-defense, tell her you're a TEAM (a "fire team" if you will) and should think/act like a Team. And as such, you need to support each other, so you BOTH need to carry. And as you stated EVEN CARRY @ HOME. For all the reasons we here know. I hope she's not waiting to be a victim before she wises up. Or, see you get hurt (or worse) because she didn't (could not/would not) help out in a time of crisis. IMO, if someone gets hurt because of his/her choice, they reap what they sow. But if his/her choice gets someone ELSE hurt, that's something else entirely.
A horse of a different color. -- the Wizard of Oz
Besides, some years back I recall reading about one incident in a big city: A guy and his gal were out on the town, some street trash tried to mug them (and maybe do worse to HER -- or him...you never know nowadays, with everyone "embracing diversity" and all that crap), and the guy FORGOT his gun (SHAME: Never leave home without it!) -- but she had HERS on her. Saved BOTH their behinds. He'll probably never live that down -- but serves him right for not having HIS gun on him! What if SHE didn't? Don't even want to think about what COULD have happened...and I wasn't even there! ;-)
Remember: Anyone can die at any time. -- Joe Bob Briggs.
...and anything can happen anywhere -- there are no 100% "safe" places nowadays.
Good luck...
P.S. When at home, MOST of the time a gun is ON me (a .32 ACP Beretta Tomcat (inox) in my jeans "coin" pocket is my lounging-around-at-home gun...lightweight, easy to carry yet still a great close-up gun). And I answer the door with it ON me. When taking a bath/shower, it's right there with me but (of course) not getting water on it (even though it's inox). And I double-lock my door so the noise of breaking-in will alert me. At all times a gun is ON me or within arm's reach. No excuses! Ever.
No...we're not paranoid, just prudent.
********************************************
Okay...looked at your pic of your 870 again. It goes to prove the old adage that a picture is worth 1000 words. Yes, it looks pretty scary to me, also! I get where your GF is coming from!!
Okay, please disregard everything I posted in this thread about shotguns, like it never happened.
[just kidding]
Well, if she stands by her decision that a shotgun (in your case, the 870) is out of the question (even though it's a shame, and even though it may only be for now) there are still many other guns she could use.
As another member mentioned above, a semi-auto .22LR rifle/carbine like the Ruger 10-22 is plenty lethal, not just for kids defending the home, or women intimidated by recoil of larger calibers, but for use by us MEN, too. For specific example, MY 22 semi-auto rifle of choice is a Marlin M60 (the OTHER of the 2 top 22LR semi-auto rifles available for DECADES now): 18 rds in the tube (probably CCI's Velocitors), hardly ANY recoil, and EASY to make a head shot with. As many times as necessary. And a .22LR definitely WILL go through someone head (avoid glancing angle/shots of course)...maybe won't come OUT, but WILL go in. That's fine as it's all you need. I don't know ANYONE who wants to get shot, even with a .22LR. And not MULTIPLE TIMES with one, either! In their head or elsewhere. ;-)
I also have a stainless-steel Ruger Mk-III bull-barrel 22LR pistol: THAT is easy to shoot and hit with, too...so a pistol she can carry AND easily shoot is a good possible choice.
As for getting your GF onboard for home/self-defense, tell her you're a TEAM (a "fire team" if you will) and should think/act like a Team. And as such, you need to support each other, so you BOTH need to carry. And as you stated EVEN CARRY @ HOME. For all the reasons we here know. I hope she's not waiting to be a victim before she wises up. Or, see you get hurt (or worse) because she didn't (could not/would not) help out in a time of crisis. IMO, if someone gets hurt because of his/her choice, they reap what they sow. But if his/her choice gets someone ELSE hurt, that's something else entirely.
A horse of a different color. -- the Wizard of Oz
Besides, some years back I recall reading about one incident in a big city: A guy and his gal were out on the town, some street trash tried to mug them (and maybe do worse to HER -- or him...you never know nowadays, with everyone "embracing diversity" and all that crap), and the guy FORGOT his gun (SHAME: Never leave home without it!) -- but she had HERS on her. Saved BOTH their behinds. He'll probably never live that down -- but serves him right for not having HIS gun on him! What if SHE didn't? Don't even want to think about what COULD have happened...and I wasn't even there! ;-)
Remember: Anyone can die at any time. -- Joe Bob Briggs.
...and anything can happen anywhere -- there are no 100% "safe" places nowadays.
Good luck...
P.S. When at home, MOST of the time a gun is ON me (a .32 ACP Beretta Tomcat (inox) in my jeans "coin" pocket is my lounging-around-at-home gun...lightweight, easy to carry yet still a great close-up gun). And I answer the door with it ON me. When taking a bath/shower, it's right there with me but (of course) not getting water on it (even though it's inox). And I double-lock my door so the noise of breaking-in will alert me. At all times a gun is ON me or within arm's reach. No excuses! Ever.
No...we're not paranoid, just prudent.
********************************************
Okay...looked at your pic of your 870 again. It goes to prove the old adage that a picture is worth 1000 words. Yes, it looks pretty scary to me, also! I get where your GF is coming from!!
Okay, please disregard everything I posted in this thread about shotguns, like it never happened.
[just kidding]
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