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Thread: Proof of purchase?

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    Proof of purchase?

    Hey everybody! I recently bought a ruger sr9 off a buddy. I paid him for it and we both have a bill of sale. If I get pulled over for speeding or w/e and he thinks it's stolen or something how do I prove it's mine? I keep my bill of sale at home in a safe place. Any advice for a new member and new gun owner would be greatly appreciated.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eshirley View Post
    Hey everybody! I recently bought a ruger sr9 off a buddy. I paid him for it and we both have a bill of sale. If I get pulled over for speeding or w/e and he thinks it's stolen or something how do I prove it's mine? I keep my bill of sale at home in a safe place. Any advice for a new member and new gun owner would be greatly appreciated.
    There is no registry of such in Virginia.

    No probable cause to stop you for simply carrying a gun either.

    Enjoy your freedoms.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Of course, if you're still nervous about proving anything in your possession actually belongs to you, another approach would be not speeding or driving in any other manner that might lead you to getting pulled over in the first place.

    If the firearm hasn't been reported as stolen then it hasn't been stolen and you have no more requirement to prove ownership of that than anything else. Do you worry about not carrying receipts for all the clothes you're (hopefully) wearing while driving, the CDs in your center console, the GPS on your windshield, etc ?

    However, it's not a stupid question. The only stupid question is the one you don't ask. Welcome to OCDO

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There is no registry of such in Virginia.

    No probable cause to stop you for simply carrying a gun either.

    Enjoy your freedoms.
    In over a half a century of OCing....I've never had a firearm checked to see if it's stolen or had to prove it's mine.
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-24-2015 at 05:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    You don't have to prove it isn't stolen. He has to prove it is. What evidence would cause him to suspect it is stolen?
    Which was my point of the deleted post....oh well....Gutshot is still correct.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 01-24-2015 at 07:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eshirley View Post
    Hey everybody! I recently bought a ruger sr9 off a buddy. I paid him for it and we both have a bill of sale. If I get pulled over for speeding or w/e and he thinks it's stolen or something how do I prove it's mine? I keep my bill of sale at home in a safe place. Any advice for a new member and new gun owner would be greatly appreciated.
    Welcome to OCDO.

    I recently attended a meeting in Virginia Beach where the Chief of Police was presenting a piece of legislation that his city was going to propose to the General Assembly this session. The proposal was that any gun owner who didn't report his/her firearm stolen within 48 hours of discovery of the theft would be subject to a fine.

    In his presentation, the Chief directly addressed the issue of checking a firearm thought to be stolen, and if it hadn't been reported as such, he had no choice but to return it to the individual. He said the thought of returning an actually stolen one to the (possible) thief kept him awake at night. He used a traffic stop during which the officer took custody of the motorists firearm for safety reasons as a typical scenario. (Some may complain that that's actually illegal, but that's not the issue, so don't waste anymore bandwidth on it.) He did so want to return the stolen firearm to its rightful owner, though.

    If the firearm you purchased from your buddy is discovered to actually be stolen, your receipt won't help you much, but it will help prove that your buddy engaged in the sale of stolen property. And you could be charged with possession of stolen property, and forfeit the firearm.

    There were only two people in the room (about 50 in attendance) who like the proposal, the Chief and the City Councilman who was sponsoring it. The rest of gun-toting, not necessarily banjo-playing, folks vehemently objected.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    In over a half a century of OCing....I've never had a firearm checked to see if it's stolen or had to prove it's mine.
    Welcome to OCDO.

    When I was enjoying my colliloquy with the Surry County Sheriff's Seargent he kept demanding I produce my gun's "papers". I still am not aware of any organization except S&W that can provide a pedigree, and since all my handguns are housebroken I did not have piddle pads to hand over.

    If a cop wants to claim your handgun (or car, or pocket comb) is stolen property he fills tells you he is placing you under arrest then goes to a magistrate where he fills out an affidavit about why he thinks the item in question is stolen. If the magistrate believes the stoty being told a warrant is issued and the rodeo begins.

    It takes time and money to sue the cop for defamation of character, false arrest, and walking upright while impersonating a human being. You may or may not win.

    It takes "guts" to tell the cop to go ahead and arrest you. Some folks do not want to deal with the time and inconvenience needed to fight and may consent to some sort of agreement to have the charges dropped in exchange for having the firearm confiscated.

    But the real point - and question - is "Why are you expecting some cop to acuse you of having a stolen firearm in youor possession?" There are all sorts of other charges they can use to yank your chain - and those charges do not expose them to the liability a false accusation of possession of stolen property might.

    New owners/carriers are all Nervous Nellies. Heck, I bet you were nervous when you started riding a bike or driving a car or going out on your first non-double date. You get less paranoid and more confident as you get more experience.

    Come out to OC events (lunch/dinner) in NOVA and meet folks with a bit more experience than you currently have. Ask someone to accompany you on an OC walk - even if it's just from the parking lot to some eatery and back to the car.

    I'll share the best advice I ever received. "Breathe. Breathe in, then breathe out."

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Welcome to OCDO.

    When I was enjoying my colliloquy with the Surry County Sheriff's Seargent he kept demanding I produce my gun's "papers". I still am not aware of any organization except S&W that can provide a pedigree, and since all my handguns are housebroken I did not have piddle pads to hand over.

    If a cop wants to claim your handgun (or car, or pocket comb) is stolen property he fills tells you he is placing you under arrest then goes to a magistrate where he fills out an affidavit about why he thinks the item in question is stolen. If the magistrate believes the stoty being told a warrant is issued and the rodeo begins.

    It takes time and money to sue the cop for defamation of character, false arrest, and walking upright while impersonating a human being. You may or may not win.

    It takes "guts" to tell the cop to go ahead and arrest you. Some folks do not want to deal with the time and inconvenience needed to fight and may consent to some sort of agreement to have the charges dropped in exchange for having the firearm confiscated.

    But the real point - and question - is "Why are you expecting some cop to acuse you of having a stolen firearm in youor possession?" There are all sorts of other charges they can use to yank your chain - and those charges do not expose them to the liability a false accusation of possession of stolen property might.

    New owners/carriers are all Nervous Nellies. Heck, I bet you were nervous when you started riding a bike or driving a car or going out on your first non-double date. You get less paranoid and more confident as you get more experience.

    Come out to OC events (lunch/dinner) in NOVA and meet folks with a bit more experience than you currently have. Ask someone to accompany you on an OC walk - even if it's just from the parking lot to some eatery and back to the car.

    I'll share the best advice I ever received. "Breathe. Breathe in, then breathe out."

    stay safe.

    Thanks for all your advice guys! No the gun is not stolen, I'm no criminal haha.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eshirley View Post
    Thanks for all your advice guys! No the gun is not stolen, I'm no criminal haha.
    "What papers? It wasn't driving so does not need a driver's license. It's housebroke so does not need piddle pads. This may be a ferry over a navagatable river but there's no requirement for a passport." (And so on and so on and so on ....) (OK, that last onne might be personally specific.)

    Just keep gently nudging them closer and closer to that cliff edge. It's more spectacular than Wile E. Coyote going over.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    My favorite daily carry gunwas purchased FTF in a parking lot from a guy I met online in a forum. We made our exchange, shook hands, and went our separate ways. No paperwork was exchanged. I've had that SIG on my hip almost every day for years now. It's never bothered me that I didn't get a reciept for it.

    I don't have one for the lawnmower I bought at a yard sale, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zoom6zoom View Post
    My favorite daily carry gunwas purchased FTF in a parking lot from a guy I met online in a forum. We made our exchange, shook hands, and went our separate ways. No paperwork was exchanged. I've had that SIG on my hip almost every day for years now. It's never bothered me that I didn't get a reciept for it.

    I don't have one for the lawnmower I bought at a yard sale, either.
    Amazingly, that's almost exactly how I bought my Sig two weeks ago. I've only put 125 rounds through it so far, but I'm hoping it will become a reliable carry gun, too.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zoom6zoom View Post
    My favorite daily carry gunwas purchased FTF in a parking lot from a guy I met online in a forum. We made our exchange, shook hands, and went our separate ways. No paperwork was exchanged. I've had that SIG on my hip almost every day for years now. It's never bothered me that I didn't get a reciept for it.

    I don't have one for the lawnmower I bought at a yard sale, either.

    Gotcha gotcha, I was talking to my father who does NOT own a firearm, and he constantly compares it to a car and how each one has a registration in the car all the time. So u can see where I'm getting my concern from. Thanks for all the input kool kats. Preciate all the love

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    Regular Member ron73440's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eshirley View Post
    Gotcha gotcha, I was talking to my father who does NOT own a firearm, and he constantly compares it to a car and how each one has a registration in the car all the time. So u can see where I'm getting my concern from. Thanks for all the input kool kats. Preciate all the love
    I had the same argument with my mother, she wanted me to get rid of my "illegal" rifles that had been bought from friends over the years, with no paperwork.

    Freedom is awesome.
    What I told my wife when she said my steel Baby Eagle .45 was heavy, "Heavy is good, heavy is reliable, if it doesn't work you could always hit him with it."-Boris the Blade

    MOLON LABE

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    I have brought dozens of free market guns never worried about providing ownership cash and carry for all of them.

    here's a link about the chances of buying a stolen weapon the could be interesting

    http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2014/04...ng-gun-at.html
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron73440 View Post
    i had the same argument with my mother, she wanted me to get rid of my "illegal" rifles that had been bought from friends over the years, with no paperwork.

    Freedom is awesome.

    mom !

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    Keep your bill of sale in a safe place, along with birth certificates, car titles, etc., in case you ever need to use it as evidence. I'm going to need the original document for use in court should it ever come to that because of an evidentiary rule called "the best evidence rule". Make copies as much as you like to keep with you if you feel the need to do so, but keep in mind that anyone who claims you don't own the gun (or more importantly, the right to be in possession of it) has to prove that point against you. You don't have to justify anything unless and until someone shows up to charge you with a crime or serves you with papers in a civil case.

    Here's something else to keep in mind: a bona-fide purchaser for value is the true owner of the personal property, even if the person he bought it from stole it from the original true owner. One thing my bill of sale form does is to establish that the purchaser is a bona-fide purchaser for value (or as those of us in the industry like to say, a "BFP"). That purchase cuts off the original owner's rights, and all he's left with is a cause of action against the thief for the value of what was stolen from him.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Keep your bill of sale in a safe place, along with birth certificates, car titles, etc., in case you ever need to use it as evidence. I'm going to need the original document for use in court should it ever come to that because of an evidentiary rule called "the best evidence rule". Make copies as much as you like to keep with you if you feel the need to do so, but keep in mind that anyone who claims you don't own the gun (or more importantly, the right to be in possession of it) has to prove that point against you. You don't have to justify anything unless and until someone shows up to charge you with a crime or serves you with papers in a civil case.

    Here's something else to keep in mind: a bona-fide purchaser for value is the true owner of the personal property, even if the person he bought it from stole it from the original true owner. One thing my bill of sale form does is to establish that the purchaser is a bona-fide purchaser for value (or as those of us in the industry like to say, a "BFP"). That purchase cuts off the original owner's rights, and all he's left with is a cause of action against the thief for the value of what was stolen from him.
    So with proper paper work, possession is 100% of ownership?

    Now if we can only get those guns being run through the system as possibly stolen, used in a crime, or as evidence returned to somebody.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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