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Utah permit holder stops armed robbery

WalkingWolf

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Unjustified threat to life, hell yeah. Fistfight or subdue? No way.

A fight is not a knife threat

When you actually intervene when a agent of the government is assaulting a person, get back to me. Until then it is such a rare event that I have never seen it happen. I will give my kudos to those heroes that stick their neck out, without fanfare, and real implications of harm. The people with video cameras. Being a hero is not a good reason to carry a gun, it is a urine poor excuse.

It is also rare when there is actually shooting going on for non LEO heroes to step in when they are not personally threatened. Self made heroes become heroes not because of circumstance, but because they look or wait for circumstance to become a hero. They are dangerous fools/idiots.
 
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J_dazzle23

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When you actually intervene when a agent of the government is assaulting a person, get back to me. Until then it is such a rare event that I have never seen it happen. I will give my kudos to those heroes that stick their neck out, without fanfare, and real implications of harm. The people with video cameras. Being a hero is not a good reason to carry a gun, it is a urine poor excuse.

It is also rare when there is actually shooting going on for non LEO heroes to step in when they are not personally threatened. Self made heroes become heroes not because of circumstance, but because they look or wait for circumstance to become a hero. They are dangerous fools/idiots.
The cop issue is a red herring. This isn't about a cop assaulting someone, this thread is about a woman threatening someone's life with a knife.

I get the point, but that isn't the thread.
 

WalkingWolf

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The cop issue is a red herring. This isn't about a cop assaulting someone, this thread is about a woman threatening someone's life with a knife.

I get the point, but that isn't the thread.

NO it is not, either you are a real hero or you are not. Stepping in when you know the circumstances are limited to cause YOU consequences is not a hero. Doing without the intention of fully committing to it, and actually jeopardizing lives is a MORON.

That is why so few people do it when it does not concern them, smart people. That is why in very few cases of a active shooter do the LAC rarely take a shot. When you think you are going to be the hero you could end up dead, or get others killed. ESPECIALLY if you are not committed to going the full Monty.
 

J_dazzle23

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NO it is not, either you are a real hero or you are not. Stepping in when you know the circumstances are limited to cause YOU consequences is not a hero. Doing without the intention of fully committing to it, and actually jeopardizing lives is a MORON.

That is why so few people do it when it does not concern them, smart people. That is why in very few cases of a active shooter do the LAC rarely take a shot. When you think you are going to be the hero you could end up dead, or get others killed. ESPECIALLY if you are not committed to going the full Monty.

It isn't about a general statement, this is a specific situation. And I'm telling you, if I see someone that is threatening to kill someone defenseless and I can intervene, and I accurately judge the situation for what it is, I will intervene. Some wont. That's ok. It's not about being an hero. It's being an sympathetic human being that values life.
 
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WalkingWolf

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It isn't about a general statement, this is a specific situation. And I'm telling you, if I see someone that is threatening to kill someone defenseless and I can intervene, and I accurately judge the situation for what it is, I will intervene. Some wont. That's ok. It's not about being an hero. It's being an sympathetic human being that values life.

Good luck with that, let us know when you become a hero, please provide cites?
 

J_dazzle23

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Good luck with that, let us know when you become a hero, please provide cites?
You can find about 10 a month in your American rifleman :)


Boy, just think if there would have been a hero in aurora.
 
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utbagpiper

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IMO he was trying to be a hero, he had time to go get a gun. And in that time she had not harmed anyone. This was a simple armed robbery, and most nobody is harmed if they give up the personal property. Were you not the one that argued personal property was not enough for lethal force?

Yes, I have argued that personal property is not worth using deadly force. However, that is the context of personal property being taken when it is unattended. The moment a criminal uses violence, and especially deadly force, against a person in order to get the property, we are no longer talking about merely property. We now have a threat against human life and limb.

I will welcome citations on how often armed robbers don't injure anyone if they go X amount of time during the robbery without injuring anyone. And in any case, it isn't about the odds, it is about the stakes.

I reject the assertion that this or any other armed robbery is just about property.

I would be loathe to personally intervene in cases like this. But I'm a little less quick or harsh than you to criticize someone else who does so successfully. My only real criticism is that he didn't have his gun on his person when he entered the restaurant the first time.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Armed robberies happen every day, it sucks, but most times the robber wants one thing, property. In this case if the robber was going to kill she would have done it while he was retrieving his gun. From videos of murderers they usually do it immediately.

Citations please?

And what rate of being injured or killed later in a robbery would be sufficient to change your calculus on this one?

He WAS/IS not a police officer, not trained to rescue the sheep, he risked escalating the situation by RETURNING when he was in no danger himself. May sound heroic, but self made heroes then to actually get people killed.

I think this is a legitimate concern, though we know nothing of his experiences or training from the news article. But given the rural nature of the area, likely police response time, and the small town where he likely knew the employees, I can certainly understand a feeling of personal responsibility to protect innocent life from an armed assailant.

And then to top all of that off, when the idiot wannabe hero when he was approached by the robber did not have the balls to shoot. Had she stabbed him and got his gun, then she could have gone on a rampage. As she already would have stepped over that line into murder.

Again, I'm a little slower to criticize not shooting since I wasn't there and don't know the details. Since it worked out ok, I'll assume he handled things well and showed proper restraint in not taking a life when it could be reasonably avoided.

Had he left her alone, she would have got some cash, he would have been able to be a good witness to provide info to the police to catch her at a later SAFER time.

So when you're confronted by an armed robber, are you going to hand over property on the assumption that will satisfy the robber and s/he will just go away?



Hereos endanger the community, that is why vigilantes are not usually looked highly upon. When they screw up they bring scorn on the rest of us.

Heroes != vigilante.

But it is still a very good point and something to bear in mind. Our individual conduct can actually reflect poorly on the entire RKBA community.

Interesting though, that you save your criticism and insults (calling the fellow an "idiot") for a good Samaritan trying to help his fellow man, and with entirely acceptable outcomes, even as you strongly defend those gun owners who engage in provocative conduct with firearms under the guise of "moving public opinion" or protesting laws they don't like when the outcome is decidedly less than desirable.

To be clear, while I personally plan to avoid injecting myself into such situations if I can avoid them, I do believe there is a natural right for decent men to come to the aid of their fellows when innocent men are assaulted by criminals. I support the right of decent men to render aid in good faith even in cases where I am inclined against getting involved personally.

Charles
 

MAC702

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He went into an out-of-the-ordinary situation to find out what was going on, WITHOUT the gun he was licensed to carry, which tells me he should know better. = IDIOT

I see no indication that he was there long enough to know what specific threats he was going to face when he came back. = LUCKY

To clarify MY PERSONAL position, I am not saying he's not a hero. I'm just saying he was lucky it was something he could handle by trumping a knife with a gun. That made him lucky. Most heroes are. I just wanted to point out that he was an idiot first, which then required even more luck to pull off the rest of it. Kudos to him, but I hope he learned a valuable lesson.
 
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twoskinsonemanns

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But was it a threat to someone's life, or just a armed robbery.

I'm very surprised at this statement. If you and yours are personally robbed by someone wielding a blade would you not protect yours?
I can't possibly believe if it was YOUR loved ones you would standby hoping they did not put that blade to use.
 

WalkingWolf

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I'm very surprised at this statement. If you and yours are personally robbed by someone wielding a blade would you not protect yours?
I can't possibly believe if it was YOUR loved ones you would standby hoping they did not put that blade to use.

This was not him and his, he left and was virtually in safety. If violence was going to happen it probably would have been then. He returned to be a hero, very simply. It was a knife, if he wanted to be a hero he would have disarmed her right then and there. It was not my loved ones, and it was not his. I don't carry to play cop, or play hero.

And then he did not have the guts to pull the trigger. He could have pushed a simple armed robbery into a murder. If you don't have what it takes to pull the trigger, keep it in your pants.
 
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twoskinsonemanns

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It isn't about a general statement, this is a specific situation. And I'm telling you, if I see someone that is threatening to kill someone defenseless and I can intervene, and I accurately judge the situation for what it is, I will intervene. Some wont. That's ok. It's not about being an hero. It's being an sympathetic human being that values life.

Good for you J. I applaud you and this guy in the OP. He stopped a theft and possible injury or death. I will not say a foul word against him.
People throw around "hero" as a pejorative but it sounds to me like this guy saw some people in trouble and just wanted to help keep them from getting harmed.
God bless him.
 

twoskinsonemanns

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This was not him and his, he left and was virtually in safety. If violence was going to happen it probably would have been then. He returned to be a hero, very simply. It was knife, if he wanted to be a hero he would have disarmed her right then and there. It was not my loved ones, and it was not his. I don't carry to play cop, or play hero.

I know it wasn't. It was a separate question based on your statement of "But was it a threat to someone's life, or just a armed robbery."
I would like to know if the standard for action would be different if it was your loved ones. After it's just armed robbery.

Perhaps "probably" could be enough for you, but not me.
 
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WalkingWolf

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I know it wasn't. It was a separate question based on your statement of "But was it a threat to someone's life, or just a armed robbery."
I would like to know if the standard for action would be different if it was your loved ones. After it's just armed robbery.

Perhaps "probably" could be enough for you, but not me.

I will ask you the same question I posed to others. If you see a cop assaulting a citizen will you step in with your firearm? Or step in period? Be Honest?
 

OC for ME

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FBI armed robbery stats by state.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...21_robbery_by_state_types_of_weapons_2012.xls

http://www.police.act.gov.au/crime-...ery-and-theft/dealing-with-armed-robbers.aspx

While the above link is from Australia I suspect that their advise is consistent with the advice provided by LEAs in the US.

Should the citizen have been a good witness? Or, declared to the robber, from a safer distance, that lethal force would be used if the criminal acts did not immediately cease...or verbiage to that effect. Engaging physically was foolhardy, luckily it work out in the citizen's favor.
 

OC for ME

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I will ask you the same question I posed to others. If you see a cop assaulting a citizen will you step in with your firearm? Or step in period? Be Honest?
No, I would not, this leads to me assuming room temperature far sooner than I desire.

The civil remedy is always advised (take the beat down) vs. defending yourself from being seriously injured...just ask a cop.

If the unlawful assault resulted in permanent disability, that mitigates any real quality of life, just add a few more zeros onto the check.
 

WalkingWolf

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FBI armed robbery stats by state.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...21_robbery_by_state_types_of_weapons_2012.xls

http://www.police.act.gov.au/crime-...ery-and-theft/dealing-with-armed-robbers.aspx

While the above link is from Australia I suspect that their advise is consistent with the advice provided by LEAs in the US.

Should the citizen have been a good witness? Or, declared to the robber, from a safer distance, that lethal force would be used if the criminal acts did not immediately cease...or verbiage to that effect. Engaging physically was foolhardy, luckily it work out in the citizen's favor.

Very lucky, especially since he did not have what it takes to pull the trigger. I almost suffered a shotgun blast to the gut by one of these ignorant heroes. A man walked into the hospital with a blanket over a shotgun. As I rounded the corner to go back on patrol he pointed the gun at my gut. I tried to remain calm and talk him down, he did not immediately shoot me, was not looking for me. This idiot moron old man jumps on his back the shotgun discharges out of his reaction as I pushed it to the side. Ignorant stupid arse hero who was in no danger himself but decided he wanted to be a hero. He went for days going around the hospital how he was a hero and saved my life. That bragging cost him his job at the hospital, after the chief had a talk with the administrator how dangerous this "hero" was.

Want to be a hero, don't do it around my family or I, we will take responsibility for our own safety if you don't mind. Leave the police work to the police, carry to protect your own, because you may just make matters worse by playing "hero".

One of the biggest problems with these self made heroes they are in no danger themselves. If they are they do not step in. Odds are there was at least one concealed carrier in the Colorado theater, I suspect that carrier was hauling ass to escape like everybody else. He would be stupid if he was not. We know there was at least one armed citizen at the shooting of Gabby Gifford in Arizona, but he did not draw and fire, which would have endangered others. While he did not get the golden awards or the pats on the back that heroes covet, he did not take any lives.

If you carry to be a "hero" please get some professional help.
 
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SovereigntyOrDeath

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Sounds like the guy did the right thing and was even thanked by the police:

Campbell offered the police department's thanks to the man who intervened, but also noted that because personal safety is always a priority for officers "citizens must recognize that any person holding a firearm upon (the officers') arrival is apparently involved until proven different."

Not sure what all the fuss is about.

Keyboard commandos and Monday morning quarterbacks, flame away!
 

WalkingWolf

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No, I would not, this leads to me assuming room temperature far sooner than I desire.

The civil remedy is always advised (take the beat down) vs. defending yourself from being seriously injured...just ask a cop.

If the unlawful assault resulted in permanent disability, that mitigates any real quality of life, just add a few more zeros onto the check.

I would be more likely to intervene if it was a police officer abusing his power, though without a firearm. I would do what the other heroes have done, film and let the officers know I was filming, and refuse to turn over that film or device. I would say I was filming even if I was not. But let me make this clear, I am no hero, if the officers threatened deadly force to me I would have to back off. And then just be a good witness later.
 
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utbagpiper

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I will ask you the same question I posed to others. If you see a cop assaulting a citizen will you step in with your firearm? Or step in period? Be Honest?

I'm afraid you're asking a bit of a red-herring question. In the first case, when a cop is seen using force there is some chance the force is justified or required to stop unlawful conduct or effect a lawful arrest. Such questions are less likely to be valid when a person is engaged in armed robbery at a restaurant or convenience store.

But put another way, the effective question you're asking is, "If you see a gang of 100 well armed men beating someone are you willing to step in on the same basis as if you see 1 lone assailant beating a person." When you take on a cop--no matter how well justified--there is a very good chance that sooner or later you get to take on the entire rest of the thin blue line, plus prosecutors, judges, and then prison guards. In short, a cop represents the power and authority of the state and in most cases will have that full power behind him.

Take on the one criminal dirt bag and a half dozen cops show up to assist or finish the job of ending the threat from the criminal.

Take on one cop, and a 4 dozen of his buddies show up to end the threat against him.

Those are two very different equations and I can't fault anyone who has a different response to those two very different sets of circumstances. Jumping into a swimming pool to save a drowning child is a prudent thing for most anyone who can swim at all. Jumping off a boat, into high seas may well be sure suicide even for the strongest of swimmers.

I simply don't see that your question--or most answers to it--provide any real benefit to the discussion.

You've asserted that this was "just an armed robbery" and thus didn't present much risk to life or limb. I and others seem to think that is a bit of an unsupportable statement. Your question about confronting cops looks a bit like a dodge to avoid answering how you'd respond to an armed robbery against yourself or a family member. Clearly an armed robbery is a threat to life and limb and most anyone might be expected to respond with deadly force.

There remain legitimate questions about the prudence of intervening in behalf of others. But I don't think claims that armed robbery is not a real threat to life or limb are the way to approach that. It seems the situation was less exigent than an active shooter situation. But if one is going to act, it seems waiting until the criminal forces victims into the freezer might not be the best course to follow either.


Charles
 
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