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Thread: Toljaso: Sydney hostage killed by police

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Toljaso: Sydney hostage killed by police

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-31033369

    Australia is like the Northeast or California, where only super duper trained heroes have guns. And private criminals, of course.
    Last edited by 77zach; 01-28-2015 at 11:57 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    IF their deaths could have been avoided...


    Now we see the mindset ...

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    Once again proving the point that you are FAR MORE LIKELY to die at the hands of police than you are from a terrorist. Even when in an actual incident with "terrorists".

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post
    Once again proving the point that you are FAR MORE LIKELY to die at the hands of police than you are from a terrorist. Even when in an actual incident with "terrorists".
    Yea much more likely.... The dude executed a guy so they went in. The hostages that got hit were struck by FRAGMENTS of bullets from them hitting hard surfaces.

    Do you guys even bother reading stuff or just hope it conforms to your agenda?
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Ms. Dawson's survivors will be comforted by this fact.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Ms. Dawson's survivors will be comforted by this fact.
    I doubt they will. They are still missing loved ones due a dude holding them hostage at gun point and subsequently executing an hostage (after the supposed threats about the bombs). My heart sincerely goes out to them and if I prayed I'd send one their way.

    A quote about dancing in the blood of others comes to mind. Same guys are doing the same jig.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Yea much more likely.... The dude executed a guy so they went in. The hostages that got hit were struck by FRAGMENTS of bullets from them hitting hard surfaces.

    Do you guys even bother reading stuff or just hope it conforms to your agenda?
    The fact remains she was killed by police gun fire. I do not hold the police accountable in this situation but as long as certain victim disarmament mantras exist their absurdities must be pointed out. Specifically, Australians are not allowed to defend themselves unless they work for the state. The possibility did not exist for any of the victims to [legally] defend themselves while the aggressor (as always) chose not to obey the laws on gun restrictions.
    Last edited by 77zach; 01-29-2015 at 12:46 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    The fact remains she was killed by police gun fire. I do not hold the police accountable in this situation but as long as certain victim disarmament mantras exist their absurdities must be pointed out. Specifically, Australians are not allowed to defend themselves unless they work for the state. The possibility did not exist for any of the victims to [legally] defend themselves while the aggressor (as always) chose not to obey the laws on gun restrictions.
    So should the police not have shot at all and let the gunman execute more people since politicians (not the police) enacted stupid laws? I'm confused...
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    So should the police not have shot at all and let the gunman execute more people since politicians (not the police) enacted stupid laws? I'm confused...
    I dont know, maybe we should ask Misty Holt-Singh from Stockton California.


    Police Gunfire Killed Misty Holt-Singh, Stockton Bank Robbery Hostage
    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...270805351.html

    or how about John Winkler

    Tosh.0 production assistant accidentally killed by LAPD
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/los-ange...ion-assistant/

    The list is actually quite long.


    ARM YOURSELVES!!!!! Do not rely on Government Agents for help, it will come too late and when it does come it may kill you!

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    So should the police not have shot at all and let the gunman execute more people since politicians (not the police) enacted stupid laws? I'm confused...
    Again, I do not hold the police responsible in this situation, it sounds like they should have gone in and taken the guy out. Politicians and police unions/lobbies and the media (as well as an unknown percentage of beat cops, in big cities probably the vast majority) universally affirm that:

    1). Those employed by the people to work for their increased long run security against private criminals are more ethical than the average citizen and so can be trusted with guns over their employers/fellow citizens. This is false.

    2). Those employed by the people to work for their increased long run security against private criminals are more capable of handling firearms and that the average citizen not employed and "trained" by the government cannot safely handle firearms. This is false.

    3). Those employed by the people to work for their increased long run security against private criminals are also capable of providing for their increased short term protection against private criminals. This is a sick joke.

    Further, let us say an illegally armed Australian had stopped the terrorist and one of his bullets had killed a hostage....

    1. He would be charged and convicted (the purpose of juries being forgotten in Australia as well) for being illegally armed
    2. He would be charged and convicted of manslaughter (the purpose of juries being forgotten in Australia as well) for killing the hostage.
    3. There won't be any charges (and there should not be) against the police who killed the hostage. This is a double standard.
    Last edited by 77zach; 01-29-2015 at 02:34 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    The hostages were responsible, they did not move from the cafe...
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Ms. Dawson's survivors will be comforted by this fact.
    As opposed to the police continuing to wait and letting the terrorists kill the hostage?

    In cases like this the cops are in a "danged if they do; darned if they don't" kind of situation. Wait until the terrorists kill the hostages and they didn't do enough, soon enough. Go in and there is a high risk the hostage gets killed one way or another.

    Legally and morally, the terrorists murdered both hostages. The cops are blameless on this one.

    The Australian people are disarmed primarily because the majority of them want themselves and their fellow countrymen disarmed. The street cops didn't instigate the political drive to disarm the population. And while expecting cops to refuse to enforce grossly unjust laws has a nice theory to it, in practice, nobody is much enamored when some rural sheriff has a different view of what is a grossly unjust law than does the fellow suggesting cops should refuse to enforce unjust laws.

    Remember that Eisenhower sent the 101st airborne into Arkansas because no less figure than the governor decided that federal desegregation and anti-discrimination laws/rulings were grossly unjust, had to be disobeyed, and called out the State National Guard to prevent integration of the schools. A whole lot of folks today are pretty sure that laws forcing bakers, florists, and photographers to provide goods and services to homosexual weddings in contradiction of religious beliefs are unjust. Many believe that progressive income taxes, or property taxes are grossly unjust. With all due respect to our police officers, do we really want street cops to be routinely deciding which laws they will uphold and while they won't?

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    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The hostages were responsible, they did not move from the cafe...
    At least no "idiot 'heroes'" intervened causing problems for the highly trained officers. ...
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The hostages were responsible, they did not move from the cafe...
    Hey-oh !

    Gotta pick the correct gun/ammo for the situation. You simply cannot bazooka every time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post
    Once again proving the point that you are FAR MORE LIKELY to die at the hands of police than you are from a terrorist. Even when in an actual incident with "terrorists".
    Like the 2 Japanese guys? Like the innocents in the mall in Nairobi? What an absolutely stupid and untrue statement. You need to travel outside of US to N Africa, Middle east, Pakistan, etc.. and report back if your head is still attached.


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    Quote Originally Posted by HPmatt View Post
    Like the 2 Japanese guys? Like the innocents in the mall in Nairobi? What an absolutely stupid and untrue statement. You need to travel outside of US to N Africa, Middle east, Pakistan, etc.. and report back if your head is still attached.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The 2 Japanese guys???? You do realize don't you that these scripted "beheadings" like James Foley, Steven Sotloff, the Japanese guys, etc. are staged fakes. "ISIS" is an admitted creation of the CIA, John Mccain is on record admitting he has met with "ISIS". The entire Mideast "unrest" is covert USA/Israel operatives doing.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...en-staged.html


    Anyone traveling to N Africa, Middle East, Pakistan, etc. IS ON THEIR OWN! Only an idiot or operatives directing the "chaos" there would travel to the places you mention. The American population needs to turn their attention to the "terrorists" who are damaging this nation on a daily basis, DC politicians of R and D variety.

    I'm sick and tired of the AmeriKan sheeple directed into giving up their freedom for FALSE security from a FICTICIOUS boogeyman.
    Last edited by Jeff. State; 01-30-2015 at 08:57 AM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    As opposed to the police continuing to wait and letting the terrorists kill the hostage?

    ...

    Charles
    For that family, a terrorist did not kill their daughter, a cop, who will likely never be identified, did. Accountability, if any is sought, is a separate issue.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I doubt they will. They are still missing loved ones due a dude holding them hostage at gun point and subsequently executing an hostage (after the supposed threats about the bombs). My heart sincerely goes out to them and if I prayed I'd send one their way.

    A quote about dancing in the blood of others comes to mind. Same guys are doing the same jig.
    Your appeal to emotion is rejected.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  19. #19
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Ms. Dawson's survivors will be comforted by this fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Your appeal to emotion is rejected.
    Which appeal to emotion? Yours?

    I was simply running with what you posted. You wanted to talk about their survivors and their comfort. So I did.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Which appeal to emotion? Yours?

    I was simply running with what you posted. You wanted to talk about their survivors and their comfort. So I did.
    You miss the crucial point, again, even though I clearly stated the point...a terrorist did not kill that woman, a cop did.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  21. #21
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    You miss the crucial point, again, even though I clearly stated the point...a terrorist did not kill that woman, a cop did.
    I didn't miss it. I simply disagree with said point. That's all. Especially based on the vague facts given thus far.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    A cop didn't kill the woman?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    A cop didn't kill the woman?
    Literally? No. A richocet or bullet fragment did. She wasn't shot by a cop. A cop shot a bullet and a broken piece hit her.

    Sure we can say "who pulled the trigger". Then I'll say the cop pulled the trigger. But he didn't even shoot her. And who forced their hand to enter and fore that shot? The bad guy.

    Don't forget they went in because he already killed someone and want going to stop. He caused that. Period.

    But I know you guys disagree hence me leaving it alone and simply saying I disagree. Not something we are going to see eye to eye on.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Literally? No. A richocet or bullet fragment did. She wasn't shot by a cop. A cop shot a bullet and a broken piece hit her.

    Sure we can say "who pulled the trigger". Then I'll say the cop pulled the trigger. But he didn't even shoot her. And who forced their hand to enter and fore that shot? The bad guy.

    Don't forget they went in because he already killed someone and want going to stop. He caused that. Period.

    But I know you guys disagree hence me leaving it alone and simply saying I disagree. Not something we are going to see eye to eye on.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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