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Thread: Video of Longview Texas homicide.

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    Video of Longview Texas homicide.

    Video of Longview Police Department Lobby on night teen was fatally shot by officers
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGIS1Knpvs0#t=132


    Negligence, incompetence, murder, are just a few words to sum up this incident.

  2. #2
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Retracted.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 01-29-2015 at 11:30 AM. Reason: Because I can
    Advocate freedom please

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Three seconds later, Coignard runs toward Derr. Longview Police Chief Don Dingler says she was wielding a butcher knife, although it is hard to make out in the video. (Dingler also say that Coignard had the words “I have a gun” written on her hand.) According to police, Officer Duffie first deployed his Taser but it had “no effect.” But about a second after Coignard began charging it appears that shots were fired. Derr fired at Coignard three times and Bagley, who had been on the scene less than five seconds, fired twice.

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...oignard-video/
    Really?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Really?
    Well if they used a taser there will be a spent cartridge and they can download it to see if/how long it was fired
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Well if they used a taser there will be a spent cartridge and they can download it to see if/how long it was fired
    My comment is not directed towards the taser use.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    My comment is not directed towards the taser use.
    My comment was more of a general one. Was using your post kind of like a cite I guess.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Instead of searching for evidence that these types of shootings are justified, let's instead ask IS THIS TYPE OF $HIT REALLY NECESSARY?!?!?!?! Multiple grown men can't take down a smallish framed female? Our justice system sure can seem like a complete and utter failure sometimes.

    Again, who really cares if it was "justified?" Does that word even mean anything anymore?
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Instead of searching for evidence that these types of shootings are justified, let's instead ask IS THIS TYPE OF $HIT REALLY NECESSARY?!?!?!?! Multiple grown men can't take down a smallish framed female? Our justice system sure can seem like a complete and utter failure sometimes.

    Again, who really cares if it was "justified?" Does that word even mean anything anymore?
    If the report is accurate someone did try taking her down with a taser. That's if that's accurate.

    If your taser doesn't work what's the next option? Your appeals to size and gender are irrelevant. A knife (supposedly a butcher knife? ) knows no size or force multipliers. And vests don't stop knives either.

    Are you going to next ask why they didn't shoot the knife from her hand? Or why they didn't shoot her in the leg?

    I'm NOT saying this is "justified" in any way. All I've said so far is noted that IF (not even saying I believe that) they used a taser then it will be logged.

    Looking for facts.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Instead of searching for evidence that these types of shootings are justified, let's instead ask IS THIS TYPE OF $HIT REALLY NECESSARY?!?!?!?! Multiple grown men can't take down a smallish framed female? Our justice system sure can seem like a complete and utter failure sometimes.

    Again, who really cares if it was "justified?" Does that word even mean anything anymore?
    You have met me. You know that the physical condition I am in is best described as "out".

    I'll hold a knife and you come take it away from me. And just remember I have a built-in TASER that so far, when it's gone off, has not dropped me to the ground. You may want to do a search for any/several of the YouTube offerings of swarms/scads of cops getting the Cuisenart treatment before you make up your mind about this.

    If you recall the thread that got disappeared I mentioned several other means of dealing with a nutjob with a knife in a PD lobby, so I'm sort of on board with you on thinking that shooting is not the only answer.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    If you watch the video the cop had her in control on the ground face down and doesn't cuff her!?!?!?! That is after he seems to wrestle with the girl on the chairs for nearly 3 minutes. All of this happened before any "knife" was produced. The official "story" from the cops is that she informed the officer that she had a gun, they then say, "I have a gun" was written on her hand.

    It is just as likely that this girl went after someone who just groped her for 3 minutes when the other officers arrived. The shooting took place a VERY short time after the other officers arrived.

    Once again what was released NO AUDIO seems edited. This happens in so many cases where the governments evidence is cropped, edited, etc. to "justify" a KILLING.
    Last edited by Jeff. State; 01-29-2015 at 01:29 PM. Reason: clarification

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Instead of searching for evidence that these types of shootings are justified, let's instead ask IS THIS TYPE OF $HIT REALLY NECESSARY?!?!?!?! Multiple grown men can't take down a smallish framed female? Our justice system sure can seem like a complete and utter failure sometimes.

    Again, who really cares if it was "justified?" Does that word even mean anything anymore?
    The law does not care one whit about if a homicide was or was not necessary. (It's an urban myth that Texas law recognized "He needed killing" as a legal defense.)

    The law cares about if the homicide was justified or excusable.

    Values and morals and ethics are all nice and I agree we should have some but all you are really saying is that your sensibilities (a big word for "feelings") were affronted (a big word for "hurt"). But what sort of values and morals and ethics would you be considering if you and your daughter happened to also be in that lobby? Remember that you are on record as being a "sheepdog".

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    A good synonym for justified is righteous or made righteous.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Without audio it leave a lot blank as to any communication that took place. It is lucky that nobody else was in the lobby. The shooting appears justified, but whether necessary is a question for morals, the court will find it justified by the video.

    Just an aside that unless the officer hit the CNC if she did not stop from a taser, a bullet would not stop her. She was young she could have stabbed for seconds before any blood loss finally stopped her. IMO shooting is not always the best option when encountering a person with a knife. Yes a knife can penetrate a vest but it takes considerable force.

    This is a situation I have been in, but with many spectators, so shooting was out of the question. Rushing and pinning works, but it takes a huge leap of faith to do it. Faith in yourself that you can pin the threat to a wall. In the case in the video it would seem the officers would know she had a knife, unless it was a small knife. There are other options if one uses their brain, and time. We had used a gurney several times to pin a threat/offender. A back board also works well to shove a person to a wall. But police seem to no longer be trained to use alternative methods of control.

    But when you have a hammer every problem looks like a nail.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post
    If you watch the video the cop had her in control on the ground face down and doesn't cuff her!?!?!?! That is after he seems to wrestle with the girl on the chairs for nearly 3 minutes. All of this happened before any "knife" was produced. The official "story" from the cops is that she informed the officer that she had a gun, they then say, "I have a gun" was written on her hand.

    It is just as likely that this girl went after someone who just groped her for 3 minutes when the other officers arrived. The shooting took place a VERY short time after the other officers arrived. Once again what is released NO AUDIO seems edited..
    This is what stuck out to me the most - that the girl was subdued and then released before she 'attacked'

    It seems odd.

    On the other hand, wouldn't in similar scenarios when the result is not a lethal shooting we argue against detainment with handcuffs? We need to be consistent.

    The fact is we don't know the facts that led the officers to make the decisions they made. This statement is in stark contrast to my initial post and reaction, which is why I retracted it. Just trying to be as objective as possible here.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    The law does not care one whit about if a homicide was or was not necessary. (It's an urban myth that Texas law recognized "He needed killing" as a legal defense.)

    The law cares about if the homicide was justified or excusable.

    Values and morals and ethics are all nice and I agree we should have some but all you are really saying is that your sensibilities (a big word for "feelings") were affronted (a big word for "hurt"). But what sort of values and morals and ethics would you be considering if you and your daughter happened to also be in that lobby? Remember that you are on record as being a "sheepdog".

    stay safe.
    It's not that my feelings are hurt, it's that this is senseless to me.

    I understand the legalities of this act, but as I said, maybe we can think outside the box here and realize as people that just because it's legal doesn't make it the best option, IMO of course. You're telling me there aren't any type of gloves/sleeves on the market that at least protect from serious knife injury? Is this shooting OK simply because shooting the girl was the easiest thing to do? What ever happened to hand to hand combat training, Jiu Jitsu, Grappling, or any other type of self-defense measures? Too difficult and dangerous I guess.

    As for being a "sheepdog," I'm pretty sure I'm on record denouncing the term, although I know what you're saying. In regards to that term or any meaning it may imply, the girl was in a Police station where I, the lowly citizen, am not allowed to carry a weapon. The cops would be on their own in this case. If I'm unarmed, which I would be due to venue, I would have no interest in disarming the girl or helping the cops especially if I had my little one with me. I'd be getting her the F outta there ASAP. If for some reason I were attacked by the girl, I'm fairly certain my fists and feet would suffice as a defense if absolutely necessary and high tailing it wasn't an option. I may get cut, but I highly doubt she would be conscious after one or two strong right hooks. It's not impossible to defend against a knife attack. Knife doesn't always win by default. A broken jaw or fractured orbital is a reasonable outcome.

    In regards to your physical condition, I would have no qualms if you were to use lethal force against such an attacker. You are physically unable to flee in an effective manner.

    In regards to the claim from Primus that I am appealing to gender or size, is it not relevant? Does a small sized female not have a disadvantage over a larger person?

    Sorry, but it's not the most difficult task in the world to defend against or disarm a knife attacker without the use of lethal force in this specific instance, especially one who is half your size. At the point where she was shot, they had her cornered.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    But when you have a hammer every problem looks like a nail.
    AmeriKan LE is a universally trained HAMMER.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    This is what stuck out to me the most - that the girl was subdued and then released before she 'attacked'

    It seems odd.

    On the other hand, wouldn't in similar scenarios when the result is not a lethal shooting we argue against detainment with handcuffs? We need to be consistent.

    The fact is we don't know the facts that led the officers to make the decisions they made. This statement is in stark contrast to my initial post and reaction, which is why I retracted it. Just trying to be as objective as possible here.
    I find it really hard to condemn them without more, especially audio. The officer may not have known she had a knife at the time he released her. One thing is clear there were no other witnesses that can be seen in the video. So IMO they had all the time in the world to talk her down, wait for equipment that could take her safely. Firemen have all kinds of neat tools that can be used to gain control of a combative person. Hell they had poles in the lobby, and if the chairs were not bolted down they could have been used.

    Why have police lost all of their use of grey matter?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    On the other hand, wouldn't in similar scenarios when the result is not a lethal shooting we argue against detainment with handcuffs? We need to be consistent.

    The fact is we don't know the facts that led the officers to make the decisions they made. This statement is in stark contrast to my initial post and reaction, which is why I retracted it. Just trying to be as objective as possible here.

    We have ZERO information on exactly what transpired and was said by the girl or officer during this incident, and now will have only one version of events. I am very surprised surveillence in a Police Station lobby doesn't include audio.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    The alternative outcomes are multitudinous.



    Seriously, a long club or a bat of some kind to try and break her hands, smash her knees, etc ad nauseum. Any smart person could think of many other ways to stop the threat in this case.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Any smart person could think of many other ways to stop the threat in this case.
    THINKING is verboten in modern AmerKan civil "service" jobs

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Instead of searching for evidence that these types of shootings are justified, let's instead ask IS THIS TYPE OF $HIT REALLY NECESSARY?!?!?!?! Multiple grown men can't take down a smallish framed female? Our justice system sure can seem like a complete and utter failure sometimes.
    Others have well addressed some of the obvious legitimate risks posed by even a smallish female with a knife, as well as potential alternative courses the police could have pursued.

    Let me just add that in a day with HIV/AIDS and (a far greater risk) HepC, along with who knows what other nasty stuff that won't wash off, I consider a knife, needle, or even long fingernails at least as much of a threat to life and limb as any handgun. Death will likely take much longer than from a gun shot if a stab wound results in infection with one of the several incurable, mostly fatal diseases currently on the market and all too common among IV drug users, prostitutes, and others with whom cops have to socialize far too often. But having watched a few folks deal with some of these illnesses, I might well choose a bullet given the choice.

    I won't expect anyone to risk any kind of injury that breaks the skin with an item possessed by someone at high risk for these illnesses. And frankly, I grow a little weary of the social costs of dealing with the kind of people who lunge at cops (or anyone else) with knives or other weapons.

    Show me cops killing someone with no justification and I'll join you in outrage. Show me someone who made credible threats against cops' lives and limbs getting killed, and I can do more than try to summon up some regret for the life choices that got the person to the place they valued their own life so little.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 01-29-2015 at 03:44 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Others have well addressed some of the obvious legitimate risks posed by even a smallish female with a knife, as well as potential alternative courses the police could have pursued.

    Let me just add that in a day with HIV/AIDS and (a far greater risk) HepC, along with who knows what other nasty stuff that won't wash off, I consider a knife, needle, or even long fingernails at least as much of a threat to life and limb as any handgun. Death will likely take much longer than from a gun shot if a stab wound results in infection with one of the several incurable, mostly fatal diseases currently on the market and all too common among IV drug users, prostitutes, and others with whom cops have to socialize far too often. But having watched a few folks deal with some of these illnesses, I might well choose a bullet given the choice.

    I won't expect anyone to risk any kind of injury that breaks the skin with an item possessed by someone at high risk for these illnesses. And frankly, I grow a little weary of the social costs of dealing with the kind of people who lunge at cops (or anyone else) with knives or other weapons.

    Show me cops killing someone with no justification and I'll join you in outrage. Show me someone who made credible threats against cops' lives and limbs getting killed, and I can do more than try to summon up some regret for the life choices that got the person to the place they valued their own life so little.

    Charles
    If you are skeered of AIDS or other diseases you should move to where there are less disease. If they do not want to chance danger or disease they should find another job.

    Since you have not I assume that you accept the risk of disease to live where you live.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 01-29-2015 at 04:50 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    If you are skeered of AIDS or other diseases you should move to where there are less disease. If they do not want to chance danger or disease they should find another job.
    No need. They have the tools to exert force at a distance and thus reduce the biological risks associated with what would otherwise be a minor knife injury. Those who object to being on the receiving end of such force at a distance are advised not to threaten cops nor armed private citizens with knives.

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Since you have not I assume that you accept the risk of disease to live where you live.
    Clearly. But it is still grossly off topic to the discussion at hand and you are moving into the realm of personal sniping. So I shall refrain from further responses to your current line of posts.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  24. #24
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    There seems to be a failure to properly process a detainee (was she a detainee?) to determine if she was in fact a lethal threat to the cops. Had her on the floor, then released her... There is no mistaking what a butcher knife is and whether or not a ~13 inch knife would go undetected. I suspect that little more beyond what is on the video will be offered, and the cop version of what is on the video, after the investigation is complete.

    My local QT has better video coverage of the store than that cop shop has of its lobby.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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