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    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    We are doomed.

    I’m very depressed today. Here are three reasons why:

    1. One of my aviation forums included a link to this story about a fighter jet “buzzing” Cal Berkely: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...rother-at-cal/ The Navy is investigating, and obviously low-altitude antics over populated areas are a big no-no. But what caught my eye was this near the end of the article:

    A local resident identified as JG wrote: “What happened this afternoon terrified me and my children. They were in their classrooms at BHS and Longfellow the the plane [sic] screamed over their heads. In my younger child’s class, children began screaming out of fear.”
    Seriously? There are two ways to interpret JG’s statement, and both of them are pathetic. Either JG is exaggerating/lying to justify her outrage, or she and/or her kids’ teachers have failed to properly teach her children how to react to unexpected stimuli. When I was a kid, a fighter jet roaring over my first-grade classroom would’ve been met with cries of “Cool!”--at least from most of the boys. So much for “Jet noise—the sound of freedom.”

    2. One of my wife’s friends is leading a protest movement against an “active shooter” drill at her kids’ school. She thinks it’s horrible that the school would do this and terrify her kids. (Her answer, of course, is to outlaw all guns. That will fix everything.) My wife argued that, as sad as it is, school shootings are a real-world threat these days, and ignoring that reality won’t make it go away. A calm, reasoned talk with the kids stating that it’s very unlikely (just like a fire or tornado) and preparing for it doesn’t mean it’s going to happen would probably make the kids OK. And somehow, fire drills, tornado drills, and even baby boomers’ “duck and cover” drills are not nearly so horrifying to this woman. My wife has tried to point out the many fallacies (how is the remote possibility of an isolated shooting more terrifying than the remote possibility of total nuclear Armageddon?), but her friend has her indignant hysteria field at full power and no logic can penetrate it.

    There’s no telling in these two cases if the kids were genuinely terrified, or they just reacted to the terror displayed by the so-called “adults” in their lives. But apparently, these “adults” never learned to cope with the reality that there are dangers and unpleasantness in the world, and now they’re passing their handicap on to their kids. Nobody’s teaching them to pull their boots on, face their fears, and get on with their lives, because there’s no magic fairy dust that will guarantee a pleasant, comfortable life.

    3. Yesterday I listened to a call-in radio show discussing Florida’s proposed legislation to allow concealed carry on college campuses. The host was remarkably unbiased, and the guest (a law professor) discussed the current state of affairs and the pros and cons of the issue very frankly. Several of the callers were “horrified, just horrified” that anyone would even consider this, that it was being discussed at all. That was the sum total of their argument; once they decided they were horrified they consciously or unconsciously ruled out any further consideration of the case.

    IMHO, these are all illustrations of how many Americans no longer value self-reliance, independence, and rational thought. It really saddens me that American society has fallen so far. Our ancestors took risks. They left their homes and crossed the ocean in tiny wooden ships to live in the wilderness. They settled the west with only what a Conestoga wagon could carry. No health care, no internet, no social security. Now we’re nothing but coddled children, afraid of everything. I knew the “American Empire” would fall someday, but I had no idea it would come so soon.
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    Beware that you may be seeing the scrubby forest and not the trees standing tall. They are taught that the squeaky wheel gets the grease and to speak though you tremble truth to power - but not what is truth.

    in my small community there are many retired schoolmarms and minister/pastors. A feeble old schoolmarm told me that she didn't want me armed in church. Pfft! We have also a discreet cohort of legally armed citizens.
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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    I enjoyed reading your post. I agree with you.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    fighter jets rock

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    fighter jets rock


    Cheer up, Eeyore.
    Last edited by The Truth; 01-29-2015 at 01:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
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    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    fighter jets rock
    Not as sweet as a B-52 taking off in 60-100 MPH winds ... fighters cannot do that.

    1,2 engines ? Try 8 mojoman !

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    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Saw that article too - was sorry that they didn't bomb and strafe Bezerkeley. Brings back fond memories of WWRRD - what would Ronald Reagan do? Send in the national guard!!!


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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Not as sweet as a B-52 taking off in 60-100 MPH winds ... fighters cannot do that.

    1,2 engines ? Try 8 mojoman !
    My uncle, Lt Col Allen B. Cotton, was unit commander of 32 AIR REFUELING SQUADRON (AMC) in 1961 - said it was the greatest aircraft he ever flew. http://www.afhra.af.mil/factsheets/f...t.asp?id=10195
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Not as sweet as a B-52 taking off in 60-100 MPH winds ... fighters cannot do that.
    Neither can a B-52. That's one of the two aircraft I flew in the Air Force.

    Everything has limits, including the mighty BUFF.
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    I wasn't able to find published crosswind/tailwind capabilities, but I note that all B-52 landing bogies are steerable, and this impressive video of a B-52 ~20° crab https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCUHQ_-l6Qg
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I wasn't able to find published crosswind/tailwind capabilities, but I note that all B-52 landing bogies are steerable, and this impressive video of a B-52 ~20° crab https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCUHQ_-l6Qg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94AcSHpcZbI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mwSTfA2_wU

    http://www.skilledpilots.com/video-t...on-the-runway/
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Also found this, associated with the 1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash

    The gunman, who was shot to death by a military policeman while pursuing yet another would-be victim in the parking lot outside the hospital, was identified today as Dean A. Mellberg, a 20-year-old former airman from Lansing, Mich.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/22/us...of-terror.html

    Abu Nidal Malik Hasan was not the first.
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    Regular Member MNMGoneShooting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    I’m very depressed today. Here are three reasons why:

    1. One of my aviation forums included a link to this story about a fighter jet “buzzing” Cal Berkely: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...rother-at-cal/ The Navy is investigating, and obviously low-altitude antics over populated areas are a big no-no. But what caught my eye was this near the end of the article:



    Seriously? There are two ways to interpret JG’s statement, and both of them are pathetic. Either JG is exaggerating/lying to justify her outrage, or she and/or her kids’ teachers have failed to properly teach her children how to react to unexpected stimuli. When I was a kid, a fighter jet roaring over my first-grade classroom would’ve been met with cries of “Cool!”--at least from most of the boys. So much for “Jet noise—the sound of freedom.”

    2. One of my wife’s friends is leading a protest movement against an “active shooter” drill at her kids’ school. She thinks it’s horrible that the school would do this and terrify her kids. (Her answer, of course, is to outlaw all guns. That will fix everything.) My wife argued that, as sad as it is, school shootings are a real-world threat these days, and ignoring that reality won’t make it go away. A calm, reasoned talk with the kids stating that it’s very unlikely (just like a fire or tornado) and preparing for it doesn’t mean it’s going to happen would probably make the kids OK. And somehow, fire drills, tornado drills, and even baby boomers’ “duck and cover” drills are not nearly so horrifying to this woman. My wife has tried to point out the many fallacies (how is the remote possibility of an isolated shooting more terrifying than the remote possibility of total nuclear Armageddon?), but her friend has her indignant hysteria field at full power and no logic can penetrate it.

    There’s no telling in these two cases if the kids were genuinely terrified, or they just reacted to the terror displayed by the so-called “adults” in their lives. But apparently, these “adults” never learned to cope with the reality that there are dangers and unpleasantness in the world, and now they’re passing their handicap on to their kids. Nobody’s teaching them to pull their boots on, face their fears, and get on with their lives, because there’s no magic fairy dust that will guarantee a pleasant, comfortable life.

    3. Yesterday I listened to a call-in radio show discussing Florida’s proposed legislation to allow concealed carry on college campuses. The host was remarkably unbiased, and the guest (a law professor) discussed the current state of affairs and the pros and cons of the issue very frankly. Several of the callers were “horrified, just horrified” that anyone would even consider this, that it was being discussed at all. That was the sum total of their argument; once they decided they were horrified they consciously or unconsciously ruled out any further consideration of the case.

    IMHO, these are all illustrations of how many Americans no longer value self-reliance, independence, and rational thought. It really saddens me that American society has fallen so far. Our ancestors took risks. They left their homes and crossed the ocean in tiny wooden ships to live in the wilderness. They settled the west with only what a Conestoga wagon could carry. No health care, no internet, no social security. Now we’re nothing but coddled children, afraid of everything. I knew the “American Empire” would fall someday, but I had no idea it would come so soon.
    The wind blows over 30mph; the children "are horrified!"
    A tractor-trailer upshifts for engine braking; the children "cower in fear"
    A humming bird accidentally hits a window; the children are placed in a corner until the "all safe" is called
    Miley Cyrus video comes on TV; the children and adults say "Cool!"

    The ONLY time I can remember we had to worry about "cowering" was during the school-drills for Russia attack (like our desk would save us from THE bomb).

    And that was when:
    - I could get up at 7am and hit the neighborhood until dark
    - I could stay at home alone at 5 years old
    - I could play with my BB gun without worrying about getting "called in"
    - I could have playing cards in the spoke of my bike without "causing alarm"

    Fully agree with OP. Sickening - our ancestors are saying, "Huh?" to their g-g-g-g-grandchildren.

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNMGoneShooting View Post
    The wind blows over 30mph; the children "are horrified!"
    A tractor-trailer upshifts for engine braking; the children "cower in fear"
    A humming bird accidentally hits a window; the children are placed in a corner until the "all safe" is called
    Miley Cyrus video comes on TV; the children and adults say "Cool!"

    The ONLY time I can remember we had to worry about "cowering" was during the school-drills for Russia attack (like our desk would save us from THE bomb).

    And that was when:
    - I could get up at 7am and hit the neighborhood until dark
    - I could stay at home alone at 5 years old
    - I could play with my BB gun without worrying about getting "called in"
    - I could have playing cards in the spoke of my bike without "causing alarm"

    Fully agree with OP. Sickening - our ancestors are saying, "Huh?" to their g-g-g-g-grandchildren.
    So you are the problem. Figured it was someone that I knew, but never would have guessed you
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I wasn't able to find published crosswind/tailwind capabilities, but I note that all B-52 landing bogies are steerable, and this impressive video of a B-52 ~20° crab.
    Good guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Fairford is a FUN TDY location. I flew that tail number about 18 years before that video was taken.

    All those electronic displays are hilarious! We didn't have 'em. Just the EVS screens, which we largely ignored during landings as they didn't provide any significant information.

    Quote Originally Posted by MNMGoneShooting View Post
    The ONLY time I can remember we had to worry about "cowering" was during the school-drills for Russia attack (like our desk would save us from THE bomb).
    Wasn't designed to. Hiding under desks helps protect you from falling lights, ceiling tiles, bricks, and debris kicked up by the shock wave. The "survivable area" where you can expect this is a donut ring extending from the smaller interior "death zone" to the edge where the blast effects would diminish until all they did was rattle windows.

    The area covered by this donut is many times the area of the death zone. THAT'S why you practiced hiding under your desks. In a nuclear strike, if a bomb affects you at all, you're much more likely to be in this much larger "survivable area" than you are in the "death zone."
    Last edited by since9; 03-02-2015 at 06:11 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Having lived on Treasure Island and being subject to a week per year of the Blue Angels behaving as through TI was still a naval base, I must disagree with "jets = sound of freedom" in the most stringent terms.

    Take the Blue Angels, for instance. The Blue Angels fly for the sole purpose of propaganda. They fly at taxpayer expense, using money stolen without consent, and spent without the purview of those to whom that money rightfully belongs. They flagrantly disregard private homes and private property; on Treasure Island routinely breaking windows with absurdly low flyovers (far lower than are permitted over residential areas, but it's OK because TI *used* to be a Naval Base), and in other communities even losing planes and sending jet parts into private residences.

    All of this is done by force and without consent, for the purpose not of combatting any threat, but to teach weak-minded children like the one you once were (and still are, apparently) that "jets = cool! = "sound of freedom!", to bolster jingoism, and to instill useless emotional attachment t o military-industrial excess in the minds of youth and adult children.

    That's your idea of freedom? Really? You, sir, have a twisted definition of the word.

    The best thing that could possibly happen for freedom at this point is the peaceful, evolutionary end of the "American Empire", which should never have been the goal of a supposedly "free" country.
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-02-2015 at 07:52 AM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    "Flyovers" are great. My kids, both boys, love them...now. Later, who knows.

    I grew up around them, Shaw AFB, the luster quickly fades...trust me. What can you do, call and complain? I was told that Sunday is a day off for the pilots...so there ya go, problem solved, complaint addressed.

    California residents should not be used as any sort of bench mark for the sentiments of the vast majority of We The People.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    I grew up on the ranch across US-101 (still visible as the green space) from the Moffett NAS (now FA) runways and watched everything from blimps to Blackbirds fly.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I grew up on the ranch across US-101 (still visible as the green space) from the Moffett NAS (now FA) runways and watched everything from blimps to Blackbirds fly.
    Stood next to a chain link fence back when this funny looking plane was wobbling back and forth, hovering a few tens of feet above the ground. After a few minutes it tilted over too far to one side and hit the ground real hard, pieces and part flying everywhere. No flames though.

    The V-22 before it was a V-22. My dad worked there, Moffett, and told his buddies over the BBQ grill one day after that..."That thing is a death trap, you won't catch me in that thing, big waste of our money."
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Even at my age when the fighter fly over from Yuma's MCAS I like looking at them. They just had their annual air show here went and watched a good time.

    One of left's/anti's goals is to turn this country into a nation of wimps.
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  21. #21
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Having lived on Treasure Island and being subject to a week per year of the Blue Angels behaving as through TI was still a naval base, I must disagree with "jets = sound of freedom" in the most stringent terms.

    Take the Blue Angels, for instance. The Blue Angels fly for the sole purpose of propaganda. They fly at taxpayer expense, using money stolen without consent, and spent without the purview of those to whom that money rightfully belongs. They flagrantly disregard private homes and private property; on Treasure Island routinely breaking windows with absurdly low flyovers (far lower than are permitted over residential areas, but it's OK because TI *used* to be a Naval Base), and in other communities even losing planes and sending jet parts into private residences.

    All of this is done by force and without consent, for the purpose not of combatting any threat, but to teach weak-minded children like the one you once were (and still are, apparently) that "jets = cool! = "sound of freedom!", to bolster jingoism, and to instill useless emotional attachment t o military-industrial excess in the minds of youth and adult children.

    That's your idea of freedom? Really? You, sir, have a twisted definition of the word.

    The best thing that could possibly happen for freedom at this point is the peaceful, evolutionary end of the "American Empire", which should never have been the goal of a supposedly "free" country.
    I share the same sentiments.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I share the same sentiments.
    So do I.
    But I do have to say watching is fun. When I was a young adult on the Iwakuni, Japan Marine base I used to go watch the planes take off and land. I would go sit on a burm about 25 yards from the main taxi way and take pictures of all the cool planes. F-18s, F-14s, F-16s, A-10s Lear Jets painted bright orange (some sort of rescue spotter?). It was a blast. I'm sure these days it would cause some kind of indefinite detention if someone tried that.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    So do I.
    But I do have to say watching is fun. When I was a young adult on the Iwakuni, Japan Marine base I used to go watch the planes take off and land. I would go sit on a burm about 25 yards from the main taxi way and take pictures of all the cool planes. F-18s, F-14s, F-16s, A-10s Lear Jets painted bright orange (some sort of rescue spotter?). It was a blast. I'm sure these days it would cause some kind of indefinite detention if someone tried that.
    Watching planes is fun if you want to watch planes. No doubt about that. There's nothing wrong with airshows per se (especially if they're for-profit).

  24. #24
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    Merely the governments training of citizens to "be afraid, be very afraid" and that requires that you surrender your rights and freedoms so we can protect you. It started with Bush and the color coded fear meter, and has continued without letup.

  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40sc View Post
    Merely the governments training of citizens to "be afraid, be very afraid" and that requires that you surrender your rights and freedoms so we can protect you. It started with Bush and the color coded fear meter, and has continued without letup.
    I'd say it started long before that.

    There was the unconstitutional alien and sedition act.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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