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Thread: Sterling Costco Shooting ruled justified

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Sterling Costco Shooting ruled justified

    This is crazy, just reading it. They're alleging that after four shots she continued to walk the floor, but earlier in the article it says she dropped to the floor after the -second- shot.

    http://www.loudountimes.com/news/art...g_justified898

    They interviewed 40 people looked at footage, and, IMO, scoured events to try to find a way to justify this travesty. Two cops against a tiny Filipino woman, 5'-5'2 in height, -armed- with scissors and a paring knife. The second officer did not shoot, which tells me something.

    Here's the pdf:
    http://www.loudoun.gov/documents/18/...1014506622.pdf

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    Looks like someone has a good civil case against Tazer ... device did not work, likely causing the lady to behave differently.

    I'm guessing that the second cop did not know how to use his gun, hence no shooting from him.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Sorry but she gave them an excuse to gun her down and they took the opportunity..
    This is not going to change any time soon.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    In a huge store with plenty of space to regroup, the cops chose to shoot her five times, rather than grab a 5'long shopping cart and pin her to the wall or knock her down?

    According to the shooter, she didn't react to being shot with a .40 once but fell down with the second shot. Then, miraculously got back up - allegedly - and "continued to walk the floor for a little bit" requiring three more shots. Elfego Bacca personified.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Why would bad cops use actual tactics when it's just waaay easier to shoot the perp? Common sense. Come on. /s
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    Similar event happened here in Idaho....http://www.policeone.com/officer-sho...ielding-woman/

    It seems LEO's need to change their rules of engagement for knife wielding perps. I would think a few shots from a shotgun with less than lethal munitions or tasers should be the first method to subdue v lethal force.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I've always said NOVA COPS all shaved their legs. Used to have one here. One of Ed's buddies.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereigntyOrDeath View Post
    Similar event happened here in Idaho....http://www.policeone.com/officer-sho...ielding-woman/

    It seems LEO's need to change their rules of engagement for knife wielding perps. I would think a few shots from a shotgun with less than lethal munitions or tasers should be the first method to subdue v lethal force.
    Agreed about tactics. Although that woman seemed very defiant and threatening, I don't think 15 seconds of "Drop the knife!" is a very adequate non-violent/non-lethal attempt.
    Last edited by The Truth; 01-31-2015 at 01:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Agreed about tactics. Although that woman seemed very defiant and threatening, I don't think 15 seconds of "Drop the knife!" is a very adequate non-violent/non-lethal attempt.
    They KNEW going into the situation it was a small middle-aged female with a knife acting upset. When they arrived she was not endangering anyone. It's not like they were ambushed. Ask yourself how you'd come up on the scene. Why not grab a shopping cart, or a large blanket and between the two of them just throw it over her? Why not wait for reinforcements and just stay out of her way? Don't they still carry PR-24 batons?

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    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Agreed about tactics. Although that woman seemed very defiant and threatening, I don't think 15 seconds of "Drop the knife!" is a very adequate non-violent/non-lethal attempt.
    Yup. Here is a good example of a take down by LVPD with bean bag ammo. First they disarm him with a well placed shot to the hand wielding the hammer, then one to the torso to take him down. The shots take place at about the 30 second mark:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2KCI_1Zz2g


    The best scenario, imo, would be for one leo to have the less than lethal rounds at the ready and the other one to have lethal rounds just in case the perp is on PCP or some other scenario were the perp keeps coming at them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Sorry but she gave them an excuse to gun her down and they took the opportunity..
    This is not going to change any time soon.
    That's a fact.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Let me put it simply, she met the level of deadly force so deadly force was used. Long gone are the days when police actually tried to find a solution without harming someone. Even when shooting them is justified. The deputy is not guilty of a crime, but our society is guilty of lack of empathy for our fellow human beings. This is not just a police problem, it is a society problem, people would rather solve their problems with violence instead of reason.

    I will add this, there are very few deadly force incidents in Britain, if the winds of politics and emotions change the police could lose their guns forever.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 01-31-2015 at 02:18 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I'm going to play Devil's Advocate just to see if anybody can get past their anti-cop anti-shoot bias and provide a response that stays on track and is not laden with feewings (sic).

    Let's suppose that the responding cops decided that firearms against a 5-foot/5-foot one-ish little Oriental lady should not be the first or only choice but the action of last resort. They try the trusty TASER (Thomas A. Swift Electric Rifle - you should go read it) and it does not incapacitate her. They get the brilliant idea of ramming her up against a wall/display shelf with a shopping cart, or run to housewares to grab a rug/blanket/bath sheet to swarm & smother her.

    They ram her with the shopping cart and because she is such a bitty thing she takes it full in the chest, suffering a punctured lung if not her sternum puncturing her heart. She - or her heirs and assigns if she dies - sues the bejabbers out of the cop(s) and because ramming with a shopping cart is not in the continuum of force it is ruled grossly or wantonly negligent. They lose qualified immunity. What does that tell every cop and every cop-trainer?

    They run at her while holding the corners of whatever it is they are planning to take her down and wrap her up with. She hits the corner of a display shelf on the way down, or bounces her head on the floor and ends up paralyzed (you pick how badly). Her family sues for the millions it will take to care for her the rest of her life, plus billions in pain and suffering and punitive damages. Smothering the allegedly emotionally disturbed is not in the conntinuum of force and is considered grossly or wantonly negligent. They lose qualified immunity. What does that tell every cop and cop-trainer?

    More importantly - what happens to your cries for alternatives to using deadly force?

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I'm going to play Devil's Advocate just to see if anybody can get past their anti-cop anti-shoot bias and provide a response that stays on track and is not laden with feewings (sic).

    Let's suppose that the responding cops decided that firearms against a 5-foot/5-foot one-ish little Oriental lady should not be the first or only choice but the action of last resort. They try the trusty TASER (Thomas A. Swift Electric Rifle - you should go read it) and it does not incapacitate her. They get the brilliant idea of ramming her up against a wall/display shelf with a shopping cart, or run to housewares to grab a rug/blanket/bath sheet to swarm & smother her.

    They ram her with the shopping cart and because she is such a bitty thing she takes it full in the chest, suffering a punctured lung if not her sternum puncturing her heart. She - or her heirs and assigns if she dies - sues the bejabbers out of the cop(s) and because ramming with a shopping cart is not in the continuum of force it is ruled grossly or wantonly negligent. They lose qualified immunity. What does that tell every cop and every cop-trainer?

    They run at her while holding the corners of whatever it is they are planning to take her down and wrap her up with. She hits the corner of a display shelf on the way down, or bounces her head on the floor and ends up paralyzed (you pick how badly). Her family sues for the millions it will take to care for her the rest of her life, plus billions in pain and suffering and punitive damages. Smothering the allegedly emotionally disturbed is not in the conntinuum of force and is considered grossly or wantonly negligent. They lose qualified immunity. What does that tell every cop and cop-trainer?

    More importantly - what happens to your cries for alternatives to using deadly force?

    stay safe.
    Your above IS how it was done in my years, and I never saw the payouts then as we do today for police actions. Most times if you are willing to just talk, that is all it takes. Plus let's remember qualified immunity.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    So your continuum of force is 1, 2, or 3 shots to the center of mass? What about 5 shots?

    Blanketing or warding off with a shopping cart until backup arrives is NOT a sure death sentence, but shooting five times IS.

    Your hypothetical is cr8p.

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    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    Lame argument by skidmark.

    Sounds like the immunity crap needs to go for shooting and killing folks.

    Amazing how much garbage is spewed without thought for a solution.

    Lets just point out more problems like the poor cop being sued. The person is alive. A small price to pay for a human life. What if that was your mom or sister on a bad reaction to prescribed medication or something?
    Last edited by SovereigntyOrDeath; 01-31-2015 at 06:26 PM.
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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    I've already decided to not argue with the moderator's bff so I will keep this comment general...not in response to anyone specifically.
    I could accept a citizen shooting in response to this threat for fear of their lives. But only a retard would believe this GROUP of trained cops couldn't restrain this person. Two people converging on her could easily control her limbs with only a small risk of injury. But, then again, why risk it? She could have been holding a Q-tip and these cowards would have murdered her anyway.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    It is the hammer syndrome, yes they were justified, but we don't have hit everything because we have a hammer. It seems that government no longer cares about their image, and the police just do what the bosses want.

    Training has gone not only the police but the public in general that the only solution to problems is deadly force. It would seem police are not putting enough emphasis on problem solving by communication.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    This is why we need to:
    1. Have strict rules of engagement - no shooting unless fired upon, back up, take cover, wait for backup, stop shooting dogs, stop shooting relatively weak individuals who aren't posing a direct danger, stop considering fleeing misdemeanors as shootable felonies (Patricia Cook).
    and
    2. Issue cops 5 shot revolvers as their duty weapon. Then they'd HAVE to restrain themselves, stop chasing people down for J-walking or minor burglary (Michael Brown), and wait for backup.

    It's pathetic that a well-trained professional can't follow a rational RoE on their own.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    This is why we need to:
    1. Have strict rules of engagement - no shooting unless fired upon, back up, take cover, wait for backup, stop shooting dogs, stop shooting relatively weak individuals who aren't posing a direct danger, stop considering fleeing misdemeanors as shootable felonies (Patricia Cook).
    and
    2. Issue cops 5 shot revolvers as their duty weapon. Then they'd HAVE to restrain themselves, stop chasing people down for J-walking or minor burglary (Michael Brown), and wait for backup.

    It's pathetic that a well-trained professional can't follow a rational RoE on their own.
    In the last decades the public has made police officers who shoot anybody heroes. Does anybody see the problem with that? WE are the problem, granted a few of us speak out, the rest of the community pats a shooter on the back. As long as it is not their loved one...

    To change this we have to change the mind of the public, and then the public will force government to force LEA to return to being a community asset.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 01-31-2015 at 07:09 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    So your continuum of force is 1, 2, or 3 shots to the center of mass? What about 5 shots?

    Blanketing or warding off with a shopping cart until backup arrives is NOT a sure death sentence, but shooting five times IS.

    Your hypothetical is cr8p.
    Courts have ruled that cops cannot be required to "shoot for the leg" ... paraphrasing of course

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    I don't give a rat's behonkiss whether the cops get sued or not. Is that really the best argument the state can come up with for killing someone as opposed to attempting to incapacitate them? Losing qualified immunity? Sounds like the butt end of a bad joke to me. Sadly it's reality. How illogical.

    Guns are specialized tools designed to do one thing (unless one wants to argue semantics). For crying out loud, Animal Control can incapacitate animals many times the size of humans, and far higher up on the food chain (grizzly bears, sharks, whales, tigers, lions, etc.), without killing them. You're telling me these bad cops are just plain too stupid to think of alternatives? You're going to blame the system and not the cop? How does it work? How can anyone initiate change? Are all the tinfoil hat wearing anarchists all correct in their assessments of the government?

    I'm getting really sick of it all, personally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  23. #23
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    I don't give a rat's behonkiss whether the cops get sued or not. Is that really the best argument the state can come up with for killing someone as opposed to attempting to incapacitate them? Losing qualified immunity? Sounds like the butt end of a bad joke to me. Sadly it's reality. How illogical.

    Guns are specialized tools designed to do one thing (unless one wants to argue semantics). For crying out loud, Animal Control can incapacitate animals many times the size of humans, and far higher up on the food chain (grizzly bears, sharks, whales, tigers, lions, etc.), without killing them. You're telling me these bad cops are just plain too stupid to think of alternatives? You're going to blame the system and not the cop? How does it work? How can anyone initiate change? Are all the tinfoil hat wearing anarchists all correct in their assessments of the government?

    I'm getting really sick of it all, personally.
    It's not that they are stupid, it seems they are trained to go to the highest level in the last couple decades. The problem is the public likes the gore of a good killing, as long as they don't have to do it themselves. And then the media and government has turned military and police into worship status since 9-11. While this is not so bad in itself it is bad that the people seem to be no longer respected. And the mass of people don't understand that they are no longer respected. They have swallowed hook, line, and sinker the we are here to help you line.

    If the officers that beat Rodney King were to do it today most Americans would be patting them on the back.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 01-31-2015 at 10:49 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    It's not that they are stupid, it seems they are trained to go to the highest level in the last couple decades. The problem is the public likes the gore of a good killing, as long as they don't have to do it themselves. And then the media and government has turned military and police into worship status since 9-11. While this is not so bad in itself it is bad that the people seem to be no longer respected. And the mass of people don't understand that they are no longer respected. They have swallowed hook, line, and sinker the we are here to help you line.

    If the officers that beat Rodney King were to do it today most Americans would be patting them on the back.
    If the Rodney King beating happened today he would have been shot to death.

    ...and didn't people cheer on those cops back then too? That crap has been happening since... always. It's impossible to eradicate the idiot gene.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    It appears that folks either do not know, do not understand, or care to disregard how a bureaucracy works.

    That does not in any way imply that how a bureaucracy works is good, proper, or even efficient - mostly because with very few exceptions bureaucracies are none of those things. However, it is vital to understand how they work and why they work that way.

    Condensed and stated in very simple terms the rules of a bureaucracy are 1) All Hail the Bureaucracy; 2) Avoid Risk at All Costs; and 3) We Will Change Only When you Force Us To Change (see rule #1).

    This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycbgHM1mI0k is not how you change a bureaucracy even if it is the preferred solution among posters here on OCDO.

    So far the courts are upholding the ways of the bureaucracy because to do otherwise would mean going against decades of precedent. That's not good or right or just - but it is what is happening. Barring some tremendous case it will also be the way things are going to be going forward.

    So the beast will not change its spots on its own, and the "traditional" force of change is loath to change the beast's spots. What to do, what to do?

    stay safe.
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