davidmcbeth
Banned
Courts have ruled that cops cannot be required to "shoot for the leg" ... paraphrasing of course
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Sterling Costco Shooting ruled justified
- Thread starter Maverick9
- Start date
Courts have ruled that cops cannot be required to "shoot for the leg" ... paraphrasing of course
I don't give a rat's behonkiss whether the cops get sued or not. Is that really the best argument the state can come up with for killing someone as opposed to attempting to incapacitate them? Losing qualified immunity? Sounds like the butt end of a bad joke to me. Sadly it's reality. How illogical.
Guns are specialized tools designed to do one thing (unless one wants to argue semantics). For crying out loud, Animal Control can incapacitate animals many times the size of humans, and far higher up on the food chain (grizzly bears, sharks, whales, tigers, lions, etc.), without killing them. You're telling me these bad cops are just plain too stupid to think of alternatives? You're going to blame the system and not the cop? How does it work? How can anyone initiate change? Are all the tinfoil hat wearing anarchists all correct in their assessments of the government?
I'm getting really sick of it all, personally.
Guns are specialized tools designed to do one thing (unless one wants to argue semantics). For crying out loud, Animal Control can incapacitate animals many times the size of humans, and far higher up on the food chain (grizzly bears, sharks, whales, tigers, lions, etc.), without killing them. You're telling me these bad cops are just plain too stupid to think of alternatives? You're going to blame the system and not the cop? How does it work? How can anyone initiate change? Are all the tinfoil hat wearing anarchists all correct in their assessments of the government?
I'm getting really sick of it all, personally.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
It's not that they are stupid, it seems they are trained to go to the highest level in the last couple decades. The problem is the public likes the gore of a good killing, as long as they don't have to do it themselves. And then the media and government has turned military and police into worship status since 9-11. While this is not so bad in itself it is bad that the people seem to be no longer respected. And the mass of people don't understand that they are no longer respected. They have swallowed hook, line, and sinker the we are here to help you line.
If the officers that beat Rodney King were to do it today most Americans would be patting them on the back.
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If the Rodney King beating happened today he would have been shot to death.
...and didn't people cheer on those cops back then too? That crap has been happening since... always. It's impossible to eradicate the idiot gene.
It appears that folks either do not know, do not understand, or care to disregard how a bureaucracy works.
That does not in any way imply that how a bureaucracy works is good, proper, or even efficient - mostly because with very few exceptions bureaucracies are none of those things. However, it is vital to understand how they work and why they work that way.
Condensed and stated in very simple terms the rules of a bureaucracy are 1) All Hail the Bureaucracy; 2) Avoid Risk at All Costs; and 3) We Will Change Only When you Force Us To Change (see rule #1).
This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycbgHM1mI0k is not how you change a bureaucracy even if it is the preferred solution among posters here on OCDO.
So far the courts are upholding the ways of the bureaucracy because to do otherwise would mean going against decades of precedent. That's not good or right or just - but it is what is happening. Barring some tremendous case it will also be the way things are going to be going forward.
So the beast will not change its spots on its own, and the "traditional" force of change is loath to change the beast's spots. What to do, what to do?
stay safe.
That does not in any way imply that how a bureaucracy works is good, proper, or even efficient - mostly because with very few exceptions bureaucracies are none of those things. However, it is vital to understand how they work and why they work that way.
Condensed and stated in very simple terms the rules of a bureaucracy are 1) All Hail the Bureaucracy; 2) Avoid Risk at All Costs; and 3) We Will Change Only When you Force Us To Change (see rule #1).
This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycbgHM1mI0k is not how you change a bureaucracy even if it is the preferred solution among posters here on OCDO.
So far the courts are upholding the ways of the bureaucracy because to do otherwise would mean going against decades of precedent. That's not good or right or just - but it is what is happening. Barring some tremendous case it will also be the way things are going to be going forward.
So the beast will not change its spots on its own, and the "traditional" force of change is loath to change the beast's spots. What to do, what to do?
stay safe.
SovereigntyOrDeath
Regular Member
The courts are a bureaucracy in and of itself. Hence the reluctance from anything but the status quo.
SovereigntyOrDeath
Regular Member
Fair enough.
How do we get rid of activist judges? How do we get the "supreme court" to stop gutting the Constitution through their self proclaimed right to interpret our rights away with judicial review?
I have stated the solution many, many times in this forum. We need to start with the next generation of young minds being indoctrinated by the progressives in the public school system. It needs to stop. I would be surprised if 1% of high school graduates from public schools could articulate the rights enumerated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
It took generations to get us into the mess we are in now and it will take many more to right the ship. A good start would be to eliminate the Federal Reserve System.Cut off the serpents head. Eliminate the printing press of monopoly money. Constitutionally mandated currency of gold and silver only. Only then will the federal government shrink into its role specifically enumerated in the constitution. No more Department of Education, etc, etc, etc......
How about being able to go back to a 1 earner households were one parent can stay home and school and raise their children instead of having teachers and babysitters influencing our kids.
There is a few solutions for us.
How about some from you? I am sure you are much smarter and better educated than I. Real, practical solutions would be great.
Thank you in advance for your insight.
I have no idea if I am better educated than you. Where (and when) did you go to school? What were your majors? Who were your professors? What were your grades? Do you have the same problems applying the theoretical and practical constructs of your education major(s) - be they intergalactic physics or driving a forklift or pushing a broom - to your day job as you appear to have resolving a local administrative/policy issue?
There are times when I am convinced that I am in fact magnitudes smater than you - at least in a "street smarts" sense. "Street smarts" identifies the problem in its smallest component and attacks it there - whether it is dealing with a schoolyard bully (punch him in the snoot rather than wait for the anti-bullying policy to actually effect the thinking and behavior of those that would be bullies) or changing the rules of when/why cops can shoot people. Draining the swamp may be a glorious objective but often you have to do that by working backwards from the individual alligator that has latched onto your backside.
Continuum of Force is a local policy/procedure issue, controlled ultimately by the head cop. Sherrifs are easier to deal with than Chiefs of Police as they stand for election. Get yourself a candidate and run them against the inncumbent. Once they are in they write a new Continuum of Force policy.
Chiefs of Police are hired, usually by some top administrative weeny that answers to the local government unit (City Council/Board of Supervisors). Get yourself some candidates and run them against the incumbents. Once they are elected they vote "No Confidence" against the current Chief and give the administrative weeny a list of characteristics they insist on for the replacement. Once the new Chief is in they write a new Continuum of Force policy.
It may take a few election cycles but certainly not the multitudes of generations you say your plans will need just to get to the point where influence on Continuum of Force and begin to trickle down to the local level.
stay safe.
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I originally decided not to address those as specific issues, but reconsideration has moved me to do do.
I thought the issue was the application of the Continuum of Force and cops shooting people when there might not have been a need to/there were alternatives to shooting that are not being considered/used.
Help me understand just exactly what those things above have to do with changing the application of the Continuum of Force.
stay safe.
ChristCrusader
Regular Member
Hear, hear!
Educate the electorate - present and future - through all means available!
Facebook, forums, schools, family-friends-neighbors-coworkers, editorials, demonstrations, pamphlets, billboards, PSA's
Restore the gov't from the local elections outward. Local politics are critical also. Committees, school board, town, city, county, state. Every level is important. Fill it with good people if nothing else, to keep out the bad. Whoever steps up gets to steer the ship. This isn't Walmart or McDonald's, with people scrambling for jobs whose purpose is to serve you the best that they can to keep you as a happy customer. These are public roles and functions to be filled and done for the benefit of whomever takes an interest - and if you don't take an interest, then decisions and actions unobserved may be directly against your interests - to you or your posterity's subjugation, be it financial or physical.
SovereigntyOrDeath
Regular Member
I believe that the problem this country faces needs to be dealt with at the core. What is the core? The people. How do we "fix" the people? A proper education that includes civics and civic responsibility. Understanding our history, good and bad. Especially why we separated from the crown and all the sacrifice in blood and treasure that has been spent to protect those ideals. Without educators indoctrinating their students to their personal beliefs and politics. 2nd part of the equation: The government interference in the education of our children. Solution: Eliminate the funding for anything the Constitution does not specifically outline the government to do.
I hope that makes sense coming from a high school grad with a degree from the university of hard knocks. I have been supporting and raising a family from the age of 18 without any handouts from government. And here I am over 3 decades later. 4 kids and 2 wives later.
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WalkingWolf
Regular Member
I agree, but to change the people, even in long term, you must communicate. Because the government is communicating, and they will not stop communicating. The only other branch communicating well is the media. Those of us who care, must communicate, until enough people communicate it gets their attention.
As it stands now, the only slow progression will be in the wrong direction, because if we do not communicate they will. IMO the first step is holding the medias feet to the fire, and how do we do that?
As it stands now, the only slow progression will be in the wrong direction, because if we do not communicate they will. IMO the first step is holding the medias feet to the fire, and how do we do that?
ChristCrusader
Regular Member
The media has been losing its grip on many, because their message has become so obviously propaganda rather than news, and its entertainment so obviously mind numbing instead of enlightening.
On demand viewing options are shaking media's soap box.
We're not bound to choosing only their content line-up.
We're not bound by their schedules.
Without commercials, the shows are 25% shorter
With all episodes available at once, you're not bound to a time slot, every week, to catch the next installment.
The show's popularity, based on freely chosen content at whatever time-slot best suits the viewer, for however long they wish to watch, is less skewed by engineering and plainly and simply on quality of the content.
Cutting the cord - or ignoring the cord - frees the mind from all of the rest of their engineering, and frees up time for alternative news sources that are bi-directional, instantly able to be corroborated or refuted, and able to be discussed with people around the world, rather than obediently absorbed and accepted as is.
Media is no longer the only voice speaking.
There are opportunities now to speak and have people hear and ponder alternative messages.
Facebook alone - perhaps originally designed to share cat photos and share how your vacation's going - is now an incredible perpetual town hall forum of both instant discussion while also being available for review and interjection at different personal schedules.
Forums archive once-written ideas as ever-present, searchable, citable, quotable references; conversations that are never over, always able to be added to and built upon, reducing the need to re-invent the wheel over and over again.
Blogs are opportunities for anyone to editorialize, expose, educate - posted once, archived, and potentially delivered to thousands of subscriptions instantly, then usually with similar features for people to discuss, corroborate, refute, cross reference, and expand.
And you don't have to be anchored at a desk top either. It's available on nearly ubiquitous smart phones on lunch breaks, red lights, laying in bed, or sitting on the toilet.
LIS in VA makes every bill in the General Assembly readable and trackable with multiple contact options for your representative and those on committees and sub-committees - all of whom are readily and clearly presented to contact as well.
Don't make it complicated. Education is disseminating truth, or clearly labelled opinion or belief, in order to turn on the perception and understanding light switches for people. It is enlightenment. Necessarily followed by enabling them to take actions taken, guided by that understanding.
Conversely, "education" in gov't schools now is deliberate obfuscation and misdirection. Mis-educating.
The understanding that the individual is the root, the base that must be protected, is what needs to be taught.
Civics needs to be reintroduced into Americans' awareness of responsibilities.
OK.
Message received.
You pick a particular behavior to jump up and down about, and then propose to fix that problem by solving all of the ills of society, during which you may actually address that particular behavior.
It has been awe-inspiring to correspond with someone who can eat an elephant in one bite.
But please do send me a PM when your all-or-nothing, from the top down approach works.
stay safe.
Maverick9
Regular Member
This thread is no longer recognizable as the original content header. Vote to close.
press1280
Regular Member
I thought this wasn't justified. Although the police were probably following their protocols, it seems they may have a "once size fits all" mentality when dealing with knife wielding attackers. This wasn't some 6'5" 250 lb linebacker type, just a 100 lb Asian woman not trained in knife attacks. If this had been a child with a knife, would it still have been justified?
I think you already know the answer to that.
Seconded. Lotsa chest beating going on. Although perhaps we could just steer it back on track.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Sorry, but yes. Under current LE use of force laws, yes.
Maverick9
Regular Member
Angry toddler with a tactical dummy?