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Thread: Snowballs? I'll blast your face off !

  1. #1
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    Snowballs? I'll blast your face off !

    http://thegrio.com/2015/02/01/ny-cop...nowball-fight/

    New Rochelle, NY — A young women captured a New York police officer holding several black teens at gunpoint after he was called to the scene for a disturbance, which turned out to be a snowball fight.

  2. #2
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    I'd love to hear that call.

    If someone called and lied about a gun being present/used, there needs to be criminal charges brought up against them, no? Don't know if NY has any laws that could be used to prosecute it, but I'm guessing there are.

    Also curious how the officer could be justified in drawing down on these guys even if there was actually a MWAG call, or whatever it is they're claiming. I don't think that MWAG calls justify holding up everyone in the general vicinity of the call at gunpoint - so what facts did he assess on scene that justified his use of force against these individuals?
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I'd love to hear that call.

    If someone called and lied about a gun being present/used, there needs to be criminal charges brought up against them, no? Don't know if NY has any laws that could be used to prosecute it, but I'm guessing there are.

    Also curious how the officer could be justified in drawing down on these guys even if there was actually a MWAG call, or whatever it is they're claiming. I don't think that MWAG calls justify holding up everyone in the general vicinity of the call at gunpoint - so what facts did he assess on scene that justified his use of force against these individuals?
    Where perzakly does http://thegrio.com/2015/02/01/ny-cop...nowball-fight/ even begin to suggest that there was a MWAG call?

    In Virginia throwing a snowball across the street can get you found guilty of either of two Class 4 felonies http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-154 or http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-279

    I'm not going to bother looking up NYS law because the odds of me throwing a snowball in NYS are less than zero. But I'm willing to put some money on the fact that there probably is at least one law against at least part of what they were doing.

    As for your questioning the basis for drawing down on someone with a snowball - it can become a deadly weapon if it hits you just right, or if you have molded it around a rock or it's really a slushball. I'm not saying drawing down was right or proper or necessary - I'm just showing that showing justification is easy.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    I remember a couple winters ago, a thread here, with video.
    Some kids throwing snow balls in a city, maybe NYC!
    Sooo they hit a car, the car stopped, an off duty cop got out of the car,
    Well,,, He pulled his gun and threatened to shoot the whole bunch of those kids!

    Probably one of those "isolated incidents"......
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I gather from the article they were not throwing at the cop, or threatening the cop with snow balls. They were it seems by the report having a friendly snow ball fight. Surely you cannot condone drawing a gun on children/young adults engaging in normal horseplay?

    Do you have a description for missiles in Va law? Personally I think it would take superman to throw a missile, besides I think they are illegal.

    The VA law is pretty clear that the missiles must put lives in peril/danger for it to be an infraction. Have we really so little common sense anymore? Is it any wonder we hear such stupid poop about zero tolerance in our schools? Personally those laws are to vague to be constitutional, and in no way does juvenile snowball fight come even close for the use of deadly force.

    Is it any wonder we have children in cribs nearly burned to death? And other acts of shear stupidity in the name of laws?
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 02-02-2015 at 03:53 AM.
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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Years ago in Seattle, the cops wanted to stop a man from placing
    leaflets under the windshield wipers of cars parked downtown,,,
    Sooo they ticketed the man and threatened to arrest him for,,,

    "Hurtling Missiles"!!!
    I dont think the charges stuck....
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Considering how snow balls can become deadly weapons these little terrorist are plain lucky to be alive. Lucky since deadly force was certainly justified. Perhaps the officer was not in the mood for that kind of paperwork.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Search one but not all...hmm. No arrests...hmm. The local cop shop has some splainin to do.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Where perzakly does http://thegrio.com/2015/02/01/ny-cop...nowball-fight/ even begin to suggest that there was a MWAG call?

    In Virginia throwing a snowball across the street can get you found guilty of either of two Class 4 felonies http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-154 or http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-279

    I'm not going to bother looking up NYS law because the odds of me throwing a snowball in NYS are less than zero. But I'm willing to put some money on the fact that there probably is at least one law against at least part of what they were doing.

    As for your questioning the basis for drawing down on someone with a snowball - it can become a deadly weapon if it hits you just right, or if you have molded it around a rock or it's really a slushball. I'm not saying drawing down was right or proper or necessary - I'm just showing that showing justification is easy.

    stay safe.
    "Talk of the Sound says they were told that the police call reported that there was a gun on the scene but the New Rochelle Police Department has not confirmed that."

    "If someone called and lied about a gun being present/used ..."

    Saying that having a snowball fight is justification for use or threat of lethal force is completely outside the realm of reasonability.
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    Hundreds of thousands of armed people running around this country, seemingly in perpetual FEAR, is NOT a good idea. Dissolve Police forces nationwide! New York has shown that when cops stop doing their job, chaos does not ensue.

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    Link to the page w/a video .. forgot to post in orginal ..

    http://www.talkofthesound.com/conten...all-fight-nsfw

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    NRPD splained...have they found the gun toting yute? have they substantiated the brandishing allegation? I'll wait.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    "Talk of the Sound says they were told that the police call reported that there was a gun on the scene but the New Rochelle Police Department has not confirmed that."

    ....
    The put the link to Talk of the Sound in there instead of leaving it buried in te other article. Responsible reporting and all that. I am not obligated to dig beyond your link unless you give me a hint that doing so is needed.

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    ....

    The VA law is pretty clear that the missiles must put lives in peril/danger for it to be an infraction. Have we really so little common sense anymore? Is it any wonder we hear such stupid poop about zero tolerance in our schools? Personally those laws are to vague to be constitutional, and in no way does juvenile snowball fight come even close for the use of deadly force.

    Is it any wonder we have children in cribs nearly burned to death? And other acts of shear stupidity in the name of laws?
    In reverse order - those "shear" laws can be quite cutting.

    Virginia case law considers anything you can heave as a "missle" - not restricted to to air-to-air or intercontinental tubes. Kids (mostly) have been busted and sent to juvie for throwing snowballs at cars, hitting a long one past the back yard left field and busting a window, and IIRC they tried to convict a 6-year old trying his first pass beyond 10 yards for hitting a on oncoming car - on the bounce! (The judge insisted that the spectators stop laughing when the Commonwealth Attorney described the henious crime he alleged had taken place.

    For the record, because it seems I am now required to state it, I do not agree with how the law is applied in those cases. But the fact remains that it was sucessfully applied in most of them.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    In reverse order - those "shear" laws can be quite cutting.

    Virginia case law considers anything you can heave as a "missle" - not restricted to to air-to-air or intercontinental tubes. Kids (mostly) have been busted and sent to juvie for throwing snowballs at cars, hitting a long one past the back yard left field and busting a window, and IIRC they tried to convict a 6-year old trying his first pass beyond 10 yards for hitting a on oncoming car - on the bounce! (The judge insisted that the spectators stop laughing when the Commonwealth Attorney described the henious crime he alleged had taken place.

    For the record, because it seems I am now required to state it, I do not agree with how the law is applied in those cases. But the fact remains that it was sucessfully applied in most of them.

    stay safe.
    No where did it state they were throwing at cars. Throwing intentionally at moving cars fits the description of peril/dangerous. A car is itself a moving object, and very dangerous if not in control. You said they tried to convict a 6 YO, I am guessing they were unsuccessful? And laughing in a courtroom is pretty much frowned on for any reason or anybody, I doubt the judge was defending the CA, or condoning his argument. But I have seen at least one judge laugh uncontrollably on the bench, my fault of course, but that is a long story.

    For common sense to soak in we have to address lack of it, not make excuses for it. And I respect you but you probably should have made it more clear that you were not on board with the cops behavior.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 02-02-2015 at 11:43 AM.
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Just like teen agers to bring a "snowball" to a gun fight! Off sarcasm.
    I'm sure the officer felt threatened, apparently many suffer PTSD fits after seeing their shadows. Sarcasm really off now
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Here a better link to the story & video. It appears police are saying they were responding to a MWAG and that the video is "creative mischief". Ok then - case closed. Sarcasm off

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...ochelle-police
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I'm just showing that showing justification is easy.
    Really, that should be for a jury to decide.

    And, if both parties were uncostumed citizens, what are the odds of a jury favoring a citizen who drew down on others over snowballs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Here a better link to the story & video. It appears police are saying they were responding to a MWAG and that the video is "creative mischief". Ok then - case closed. Sarcasm off

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...ochelle-police
    Appears as if the cops are saying that the kids were not having a snowball fight at all just using it as a "cover".

    Well, they can show a video to support this allegation?

    Right now, I don't believe what any cops says...they are under no obligation to tell you, me, or the public the truth...so I assume everything that they say is a lie.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Appears as if the cops are saying that the kids were not having a snowball fight at all just using it as a "cover".

    Well, they can show a video to support this allegation?

    Right now, I don't believe what any cops says...they are under no obligation to tell you, me, or the public the truth...so I assume everything that they say is a lie.
    They did not recover a gun, this sounds like a swatting. It has become obvious when a person wants to get attention from police they make a claim of gun in some form. It gets a police response where it might not normally. It is not responsible and the police encourage by not using their noggin, and not arresting those making the calls.
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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Regardless of how the call came in - is the officer not required to observe facts on scene justifying use of force before using force? What facts were observed on scene that justified use of force? Unless I'm mistaken, the video doesn't show us the moments before the officer drew. It seems quite unlikely, however, that any real justification for threat of lethal force was given. We may never know. I agree this smells strongly of SWATing.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 02-02-2015 at 07:03 PM.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Regardless of how the call came in - is the officer not required to observe facts on scene justifying use of force before using force? What facts were observed on scene that justified use of force? Unless I'm mistaken, the video doesn't show us the moments before the officer drew. It seems quite unlikely, however, that any real justification for threat of lethal force was given. We may never know. I agree this smells strongly of SWATing.
    The deadly "furtive movement towards his waistband."

    Again, that is the factual answer to your inquiry about what facts were observed (and in fact articulated). It shpould not be taken as either support or opposition to the actual behavior of either side.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  23. #23
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Reaching in the waistband is one of those catch phrases used, like "stop resisting" "stop grabbing my gun" too many cases that are coming to light of those phrases used when it did not happen.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Again, that is the factual answer to your inquiry about what facts were observed (and in fact articulated). It shpould not be taken as either support or opposition to the actual behavior of either side.
    The thing is skid, sometimes when threads like this come up you act as though we aren't all intimately aware of what sort of justifications are legally acceptable, and which ones the police prefer.

    I suppose I should remind you that this is a self-defense site, and we're not children. It's supremely difficult to take you harping on points which the rest of us implicitly assume as given and move past, as anything but defense of the cops -- regardless of how carefully you couch it in objectivity nor how many disclaimers of neutrality you attach.

    In other words, do you actually have anything to add to the conversation? Or do you just enjoy telling us things we already know, because patronizing us appeals to you?
    Last edited by marshaul; 02-02-2015 at 07:54 PM.

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    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I'm just showing that showing justification is easy.
    You nailed the problem.

    Change continuum of force and eliminate immunity forthwith.

    Maybe some recon would have been in order before drawing his side arm.

    Different problem, different thread. Same solution.
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