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Thread: Might be able to carry on school property

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    Regular Member njkennelly's Avatar
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    Might be able to carry on school property

    Morning all,

    So I just had a conference with the principal of my child's school. Part of our discussion was the legal carry of a firearm on school property. Great news...SHE IS ALL FOR IT! The hiccup lies in that it's a charter school, therefore she will have to present it to "The Board". Fortunately I know a couple member of said board that also carry firearms. I will be drafting a letter to the principal requesting her authorization to carry.

    So I come here seeking a bit of assistance.

    Have any of you written a letter to receive authorization to carry on school property (successfully or not)? If you have, please share. I would like a template I can start with.

    Also, any other applicable laws pertaining to this issue. This is what I've found so far:

    NRS 202.265.3(a)(3)
    https://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-...l#NRS202Sec265

    I also know there is the Fed law about being able to carry if you have the principal's written authorization and you have a permit issued by the state in which the school is located. However, I can't seem to locate that reference. Please help.

    Any other assistance would be greatly appreciated.

    Noah

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    Quote Originally Posted by njkennelly View Post
    [ ... ]I also know there is the Fed law about being able to carry if you have the principal's written authorization and you have a permit issued by the state in which the school is located. However, I can't seem to locate that reference. Please help....
    18 USC 922(q)(2)(B) "Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    [ ... ]"
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    Regular Member njkennelly's Avatar
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    Sweet thanks.

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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Looks like Wyoming is on the path to removing 99% of "Massacre Safe Zones", about the only places off limits are court houses, all other governmental buildings will be open to CC with permit.

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    NO school mass shooting has been done by a person authorized to have firearms on the school grounds. ALL have been either by invaders or by those who brought the weapons for the specific purpose of committing the crime.

    Several school shootings have been halted in the early stages by armed intervention.

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    OP may be asking for a declaratory ruling?

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    Why does the principal need to present it to the board? NRS only requires authorization from the principal. My dad teaches at a catholic school and I told him to ask his principal to carry, but he says "The bishop will never allow that." I said "well, you don't gotta ask the bishop according to state law." It's amazing how worried administrators are for their jobs, when authorizing or rejecting a concealed carry request is simply one of their administrative duties.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickyray9 View Post
    Why does the principal need to present it to the board? NRS only requires authorization from the principal. My dad teaches at a catholic school and I told him to ask his principal to carry, but he says "The bishop will never allow that." I said "well, you don't gotta ask the bishop according to state law." It's amazing how worried administrators are for their jobs, when authorizing or rejecting a concealed carry request is simply one of their administrative duties.
    I think it has something to do with liking to eat and having a dry place to sleep.

    School principals/administrators are not exactly independent, free to make their own decisions.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickyray9 View Post
    Why does the principal need to present it to the board? NRS only requires authorization from the principal. ...
    Yes, but the principal may not have the authority to do it from the board. While the principal's permission would be good for the carrier, the board finding out their approval wasn't sought might get the principal in trouble.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickyray9 View Post
    Why does the principal need to present it to the board? NRS only requires authorization from the principal. My dad teaches at a catholic school and I told him to ask his principal to carry, but he says "The bishop will never allow that." I said "well, you don't gotta ask the bishop according to state law." It's amazing how worried administrators are for their jobs, when authorizing or rejecting a concealed carry request is simply one of their administrative duties.
    State law doesn't give the principal authority to act against the wishes of the board, it only identifies the principal as the point of contact.

    No, your dad doesn't have to ask the Bishop for approval, but the Bishop has the power to override him -- or fire him.

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    It would seem to me that the board, bishop, or whatever entity in charge of any non-public school wouldn't tell the principal "Oh by the way, don't authorize anyone to carry concealed weapons in this building" on their first day on the job. Unless this is expressly stated, the principal could authorize a carrier, say "keep it on the down-low," and in the unlikely event of an incident, the authorized carrier could handle the situation and everyone will say "it's a good thing that principal authorized that guy to carry," including the board.

    One thing I've learned over the years is to not let anyone manage me more than I need to be. Anyone who has been management in a hierarchical organization knows that if you have the power to implement a policy that you think will be good, you should just do it because you were hired to do that job with your qualifications. If you always ask your boss before implementing anything, you're setting yourself up to be micromanaged and you lose your own authority on the matter.

    I'm absolutely all for property rights of the owner, be it a CEO, board, bishop, or whatever, but unless the owner expressly states a policy ahead of time, it's not a bad thing for a principal to be able to make a call on something. That's what they were hired for.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Nevada's "at will" employment means a principal can be fired for no reason. All he has to do is piss off the board; it doesn't matter why. I don't hold the principal at fault for making sure his superiors are okay with it. Yes, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission, but it has its risks. It's not like requests to carry firearms are a normal routine for them. I'll bet most (and their superiors) don't even know they get to make that call.

    But that said, yes, I agree with you on the principle of the principal.
    Last edited by MAC702; 02-06-2015 at 02:47 AM.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickyray9 View Post
    It would seem to me that the board, bishop, or whatever entity in charge of any non-public school wouldn't tell the principal "Oh by the way, don't authorize anyone to carry concealed weapons in this building" on their first day on the job. Unless this is expressly stated, the principal could authorize a carrier, say "keep it on the down-low," and in the unlikely event of an incident, the authorized carrier could handle the situation and everyone will say "it's a good thing that principal authorized that guy to carry," including the board.

    One thing I've learned over the years is to not let anyone manage me more than I need to be. Anyone who has been management in a hierarchical organization knows that if you have the power to implement a policy that you think will be good, you should just do it because you were hired to do that job with your qualifications. If you always ask your boss before implementing anything, you're setting yourself up to be micromanaged and you lose your own authority on the matter.

    I'm absolutely all for property rights of the owner, be it a CEO, board, bishop, or whatever, but unless the owner expressly states a policy ahead of time, it's not a bad thing for a principal to be able to make a call on something. That's what they were hired for.
    Solid post. I'm still thinking about the last little paragraph though...not in regards to property rights but in regards to giving the principal such discretion.
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    It is better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission.

    I remember by my GM-15 boss yelling, "Good amm'it man, you decide, it's your job, not mine!" In twenty years working for him, I only got in deep-doodoo once. I told my trainees that they didn't know their job until they could get in trouble for a good thing and out again.
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    Wife is a school District Administrator, in Wisconsin. I'm sure there are 51 different policies in place across the US! Each state is most likely different. Maybe 57 policies? A parochial school may be different than a public school as well.

    Highly doubt it is the Principal's decision. Most likely the District Administrator, and probably has to go through the School Board. The Board is responsible for policy and oversight, the DA is responsible to inform the Board of changes in law, update and recommendations, and to implement the Board's decision and direction. In other words, the Board decides what and how they want things to happen, the DA makes them happen, with the help of Principals and staff. Everybody is in a CYA mode due to lawsuits and PC and zero tolerance bs. Most Administration are not part of the union and are either on a year to year contract, or a rolling two year contract. A change of the board, hurt feeling, or someone with an agenda can change your life overnight. The average DA job is 1.7 years right now in WI, lots of turnover.

    Wisconsin has 8 exceptions to the basic law of no firearms in schools. One is for police officers on duty. Another is for hired security. None are for a parent or average citizen, although it looks to me that you could take an unloaded, encased firearm right into the school, tho I wouldn't recommend it. I have offered to be security for $1.00 a year, but wife says no and won't even think about taking it to the Board. I'm sure your state is different. In the wrong environment, with the wrong school board, I could see a DA or a Principal being outright fired, or at least your life made a living hell merely for broaching the idea of allowing a gun in the school.

    It's all great if an armed responsible citizen takes out the bad guy. But if/when he takes out a couple of kids in the process, or in some confusion the shtf. Nobody wants to go out on a limb, take any kind of risks that might possibly go bad. They'd all rather rely on a hope and a prayer (can I use that word in a post about schools?) and just wish the bad guys do the right thing. Because of th children. It's all about the children, gotta get the children in there about any conversation so people know you are serious.
    Last edited by Wstar425; 02-06-2015 at 09:07 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Just to keep Nevada law on the matter clear:
    NRS 202.265  Possession of dangerous weapon on property or in vehicle of school or child care facility; penalty; exceptions.
    1.  Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not carry or possess while on the property of the Nevada System of Higher Education, a private or public school or child care facility, or while in a vehicle of a private or public school or child care facility:
    (a) An explosive or incendiary device;
    (b) A dirk, dagger or switchblade knife;
    (c) A nunchaku or trefoil;
    (d) A blackjack or billy club or metal knuckles;
    (e) A pistol, revolver or other firearm; or
    (f) Any device used to mark any part of a person with paint or any other substance.
    2.  Any person who violates subsection 1 is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.
    3.  This section does not prohibit the possession of a weapon listed in subsection 1 on the property of:
    (a) A private
    or public school or child care facility by a:
    (1) Peace officer;
    (2) School security guard; or
    (3) Person having written permission from the president of a branch or facility of the Nevada System of Higher Education or the principal of the school or the person designated by a child care facility to give permission to carry or possess the weapon.
    (b) A child care facility which is located at or in the home of a natural person by the person who owns or operates the facility so long as the person resides in the home and the person complies with any laws governing the possession of such a weapon.
    4.  The provisions of this section apply to a child care facility located at or in the home of a natural person only during the normal hours of business of the facility...
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Nevada has it rocking?

    Good luck!

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