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America's one choice in 2016.................

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Vote for federal critters to begin the return to liberty that the fed.gov has not been doing these many years past. I focus on the state level and municipal, and county to some extent. States are starting to realize the deal they made with the devil is not irrevocable.

Unfortunately, Ronaldus Magnus was subject to the "same" congress critters then, as we have today. Thus, he being a politician had to make some adjustments from time to time.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Vote for federal critters to begin the return to liberty that the fed.gov has not been doing these many years past. I focus on the state level and municipal, and county to some extent. States are starting to realize the deal they made with the devil is not irrevocable.

Unfortunately, Ronaldus Magnus was subject to the "same" congress critters then, as we have today. Thus, he being a politician had to make some adjustments from time to time.
Well, here ya go.
The Supreme Court will not consider giving a man accused of trying to ignite a bomb in downtown Chicago access to secret intelligence-court records.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ss-to-secret-court-records/?intcmp=latestnews
Uncle Sam can get stuff on you to prosecute you, but you cannot get a look at the evidence that convicts you. I wonder if this situation is addressed in the DoI.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Well, here ya go.Uncle Sam can get stuff on you to prosecute you, but you cannot get a look at the evidence that convicts you. I wonder if this situation is addressed in the DoI.
Then again there is this little tidbit.
The Supreme Court has rejected a free-speech appeal from guides in New Orleans who object to having to be licensed to lead tours.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-guides-free-speech-appeal/?intcmp=latestnews
Well there ya go our right to speak our mind is a criminal offense that requires a permit to avoid criminal sanctions. Is this situation addressed in the DoI?
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Thats what makes him a statist he'll defend his government against his country.

I'll defend the government of my country against those who are determined to overthrow it.

I will work to improve my government, rather than attacking it or advocating rebellion against it.

See "Poke a Bear" thread post #19:

sudden valley gunner said:
... I have become an advocate for a stateless society....

While others will hide behind internet anonymity, and try to be coy about their views, my full name is here and I'm quite open.

Bumper sticker insults like "statist" from anonymous keyboard jockeys are part and parcel of the internet. Let me know when you have some real solutions rather than just bitching that things are not as you'd like them to be.

Charles
 

J_dazzle23

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
643
I'll defend the government of my country against those who are determined to overthrow it.

I will work to improve my government, rather than attacking it or advocating rebellion against it.

See "Poke a Bear" thread post #19:



While others will hide behind internet anonymity, and try to be coy about their views, my full name is here and I'm quite open.

Bumper sticker insults like "statist" from anonymous keyboard jockeys are part and parcel of the internet. Let me know when you have some real solutions rather than just bitching that things are not as you'd like them to be.

Charles
Charles, I agree with you in a lot of ways, but to be honest I can't exactly fault people for not having faith in the existing system. It's fairly obvious that on a national level the system is, if not broken, very corrupt.

I think the best bet is trying to improve local government and go from there, which you have done. But even many of our founding fathers did not think this national government would last forever, due to its overgrowth of states' rights among other things. (I hope you are ok without a cite, I believe this is somewhat common knowledge)

I don't promote anarchy, and I believe in trying to keep rule of law and improve things by work, not by fighting. But on the other hand, it's not hard to see the federal government is responsible for most of the rights infringements and abhorrent overreaching left and right of the isle.
 
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utbagpiper

Banned
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Messages
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Location
Utah
Charles, I agree with you in a lot of ways, but to be honest I can't exactly fault people for not having faith in the existing system. It's fairly obvious that on a national level the system is, if not broken, very corrupt.

As Richardson points out in "Confrontation Politics" (I think is the correct reference), "It isn't that the system is broken, it is that it works differently than you think it does."

It isn't that the local governments work any differently, it is just easier to get enough folks who agree on RKBA to be able to make a change in gun-friendly States than it is at the national level.

Our biggest mistake in politics is thinking that most everyone must agree with us. Whether the issue is RKBA, taxes, immigration, marriage, or whatever else, the range of sincerely held view is remarkable.

I think the best bet is trying to improve local government and go from there, which you have done. But even many of our founding fathers did not think this national government would last forever, due to its overgrowth of states' rights among other things. (I hope you are ok without a cite, I believe this is somewhat common knowledge)

I don't promote anarchy, and I believe in trying to keep rule of law and improve things by work, not by fighting. But on the other hand, it's not hard to see the federal government is responsible for most of the rights infringements and abhorrent overreaching left and right of the isle.

I doubt blacks, the disabled, women, or homosexuals would agree that the federal government has infringed rights nearly so much as protected their "rights" (as they see it) from infringement by the States or individuals under cover of State law. Blacks had legit grievances against Jim Crow. Women may have had some legit beefs against taxpayer money being used to promote men's sports without equal regard for women's. Most homosexuals are well convinced that not being provided marriage benefits for their relationships is gross infringements of their rights.

Of course, the feds have been responsible for most infringements of RKBA, but may also ultimately be the force the protects RKBA against State level infringement in places like Illinois, NJ, Cali, etc.

It is said that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. One major lesson from history is that wars are brutal and the outcomes more often than not unpleasant even for the winners. Another is that real change often takes time. We have 25 years of growing success on RKBA. Even most gun grabbers are afraid to make overt efforts in congress and rely on back door attempts since the election results of '94. Why would we change a winning strategy now?

I can understand the frustration. I can appreciate a few specific cases where armed resistance seem to be needed to prevent immediate wrongs (Bundy ranch, The Athens War in post WWII Tennessee, against racist police conduct in certain communities, the Mormon War, etc).

But if war ever comes, I want to be able to look my family and my God in the eyes and say with full honesty of soul that I did everything honorably possible to avoid it, to use peaceful methods.

Not to mention the fact that one is hard pressed to find examples of successful revolutions.

Charles
 

J_dazzle23

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
643
As Richardson points out in "Confrontation Politics" (I think is the correct reference), "It isn't that the system is broken, it is that it works differently than you think it does."

It isn't that the local governments work any differently, it is just easier to get enough folks who agree on RKBA to be able to make a change in gun-friendly States than it is at the national level.

Our biggest mistake in politics is thinking that most everyone must agree with us. Whether the issue is RKBA, taxes, immigration, marriage, or whatever else, the range of sincerely held view is remarkable.



I doubt blacks, the disabled, women, or homosexuals would agree that the federal government has infringed rights nearly so much as protected their "rights" (as they see it) from infringement by the States or individuals under cover of State law. Blacks had legit grievances against Jim Crow. Women may have had some legit beefs against taxpayer money being used to promote men's sports without equal regard for women's. Most homosexuals are well convinced that not being provided marriage benefits for their relationships is gross infringements of their rights.

Of course, the feds have been responsible for most infringements of RKBA, but may also ultimately be the force the protects RKBA against State level infringement in places like Illinois, NJ, Cali, etc.

It is said that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. One major lesson from history is that wars are brutal and the outcomes more often than not unpleasant even for the winners. Another is that real change often takes time. We have 25 years of growing success on RKBA. Even most gun grabbers are afraid to make overt efforts in congress and rely on back door attempts since the election results of '94. Why would we change a winning strategy now?

I can understand the frustration. I can appreciate a few specific cases where armed resistance seem to be needed to prevent immediate wrongs (Bundy ranch, The Athens War in post WWII Tennessee, against racist police conduct in certain communities, the Mormon War, etc).

But if war ever comes, I want to be able to look my family and my God in the eyes and say with full honesty of soul that I did everything honorably possible to avoid it, to use peaceful methods.

Not to mention the fact that one is hard pressed to find examples of successful revolutions.

Charles
Revolution is ugly. I'm a big believer in NOT hastening the day. But all of the subgroups you mentioned (blacks, gays, etc) have all had the same rights infringement I'm talking about. It doesn't matter who is in office, either. It's just a different flavor of rights infringement. I don't thing the only one is gun rights.

For example patriot act, obamacare, rights infringements by police (no knock, illegal detainments, dui checkpoints, etc) (which by the way, blacks DO seem to be compaining about that one quite a bit lately)

Big government has made a living taking our rights away on a national level, and until states can spine up and restrain the federal gov, I'm not gonna fault someone for not believing in it much.

I agree with your point, just providing a different point of view I suppose.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Big government has made a living taking our rights away on a national level, and until states can spine up and restrain the federal gov, I'm not gonna fault someone for not believing in it much.

I agree with your point, just providing a different point of view I suppose.

My point is that many groups quite legitimately view the federal government as the protector, grantor, even inventor of their "rights".

I won't fault someone for his beliefs. I will fault him for trying to convince gun owners to take the most stupid course possible. Voting costs us almost nothing. Effective political activism has a proven 25 year history of advancing and reclaiming our rights. We've got a ways to go, to be sure. But we've made huge progress.

Only a complete moron or an agent provocateur would encourage us to give up on active participation in the electoral process at this point. Given the OP's postings in the last 24 hours, I'll leave others to judge which he may be, if not both.

Charles
 

J_dazzle23

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
643
My point is that many groups quite legitimately view the federal government as the protector, grantor, even inventor of their "rights".

I won't fault someone for his beliefs. I will fault him for trying to convince gun owners to take the most stupid course possible. Voting costs us almost nothing. Effective political activism has a proven 25 year history of advancing and reclaiming our rights. We've got a ways to go, to be sure. But we've made huge progress.

Only a complete moron or an agent provocateur would encourage us to give up on active participation in the electoral process at this point. Given the OP's postings in the last 24 hours, I'll leave others to judge which he may be, if not both.

Charles
Oh, yes he is on quite the run tonight :)
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
It needn't be ugly. Here's a wonderful example of a restoration, rather than a revolution.

I think we need to remember that word: restoration. If our government has gone off the reservation, and we restore it to its Constitutional footing, that isn't a revolution at all.

I would disagree. Revolution isn't the actual war or violence, its the change and the change starts in the heart and mind.

It starts by education. It starts by pointing out whats wrong and hoping for better. It means others will do all they can to demonize you for daring to attack their government. It means they will lie about you, lie about history, and not engage in honest debate.
 
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utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
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Location
Utah
It needn't be ugly. Here's a wonderful example of a restoration, rather than a revolution.

I think we need to remember that word: restoration. If our government has gone off the reservation, and we restore it to its Constitutional footing, that isn't a revolution at all.

Having read the linked article, I have to agree. This is a stellar example of working within the current processes--political, judicial, legal--to correct problems.

But then it seems you and I believe that an adherence to the constitution is the preferred form of government.

There are those among us who do not so believe.

Charles
 

DrakeZ07

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2011
Messages
1,080
Location
Lexington, Ky
Vote me as president in the far-off future. America's first openly gay, militant Atheist, democrat gun toting president. I promise to get rid of the U.S. military, as it is not, and never was, constitutional, bring back and encourage state only militias, get rid of the Navy, the marines, the army, the air force, and get rid of our nuclear arsenal. destroy our foriegn military bases, stay within our borders, dissolve all of our alliances, and keep to our selves. Get rid of all taxes, end all federal agencies, and programs, end the fed, and downsize the executive branch to be less powerful than the legislature, and the judicial.

Also, get rid of border patrol, because we're a nation of immigrants as is, founded by, built by, and lead by, immigrants.
 

utbagpiper

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I promise to get rid of the U.S. military, as it is not, and never was, constitutional,

The constitution disagrees with you:

Article 1 Section 8 said:
Congress shall have power....

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Article 2 Section 2 said:
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;

There can be no doubt that the federal constitution authorizes the existence of the US Military in addition to State militias.

Personal opinions on the prudence of maintaining a standing army, a navy, and other branches, as well as their proper use and foreign policy are not to presupposed from a pro-RKBA position. But anyone who doesn't understand the difference between said personal opinions and what is or is not actually permitted by the federal constitution is wholly unfit for any constitutional office.

Get back to me when you've come to an accurate understanding of the simple text of the constitution.

Charles
 

DrakeZ07

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2011
Messages
1,080
Location
Lexington, Ky
The constitution disagrees with you:





There can be no doubt that the federal constitution authorizes the existence of the US Military in addition to State militias.

Personal opinions on the prudence of maintaining a standing army, a navy, and other branches, as well as their proper use and foreign policy are not to presupposed from a pro-RKBA position. But anyone who doesn't understand the difference between said personal opinions and what is or is not actually permitted by the federal constitution is wholly unfit for any constitutional office.

Get back to me when you've come to an accurate understanding of the simple text of the constitution.

Charles

Tell that to every single Republican, Democrat, Whig, Independant, and other party that has been in office since the mid 1800s, then get back with me.
 

J_dazzle23

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
643
Vote me as president in the far-off future. America's first openly gay, militant Atheist, democrat gun toting president. I promise to get rid of the U.S. military, as it is not, and never was, constitutional, bring back and encourage state only militias, get rid of the Navy, the marines, the army, the air force, and get rid of our nuclear arsenal. destroy our foriegn military bases, stay within our borders, dissolve all of our alliances, and keep to our selves. Get rid of all taxes, end all federal agencies, and programs, end the fed, and downsize the executive branch to be less powerful than the legislature, and the judicial.

Also, get rid of border patrol, because we're a nation of immigrants as is, founded by, built by, and lead by, immigrants.

You do realize you just listed 14 different things you would use executive power to do away with, and downsize the executive branch to be less powerful than the other two in the same paragraph, right?

Didn't think than one through, methinks :)
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
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Messages
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Utah
Tell that to every single Republican, Democrat, Whig, Independant, and other party that has been in office since the mid 1800s, then get back with me.

No doubt that we've seen violations of the constitution and exceeding constitutional authority since the early 1800s (when Jefferson purchased Louisiana).

But none of those jokers are here on this list claiming to be experts in constitutional authority. Were I in a forum to call those candidates out on their BS, I'd do so.

When you tell me the military is a violation of the US constitution, I will call you out as being in clear error.

Tell you simply want to neuter the military and I'll simply disagree with your opinions.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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You do realize you just listed 14 different things you would use executive power to do away with, and downsize the executive branch to be less powerful than the other two in the same paragraph, right?

Didn't think than one through, methinks :)

+1

The irony is rich.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
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Jan 14, 2010
Messages
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Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
I would disagree. Revolution isn't the actual war or violence, its the change and the change starts in the heart and mind.

Your disagreement is noted. If we didn't have a Constitution, then "change" against what the status quo in government wanted would technical be considered "rebellion."

However, we DO have a Constitution. By that simple fact alone, if our government wanders off they mark, and we restore it to that mark, that's not rebellion, and it's certainly not "revolution."

It's restoration, and it's not only perfectly legal, it's the American way, as evidenced by countless court cases exonerating those who stuck to "the supreme Law of the Land."

It starts by education. It starts by pointing out whats wrong and hoping for better. It means others will do all they can to demonize you for daring to attack their government. It means they will lie about you, lie about history, and not engage in honest debate.

To be expected. As you observed, "it starts by education." That's Step 1 in restoring our government to its lawful foundation. I exercise that right at least once a week whenever I write my Congressman. Although I'm adept at diving into the depths of U.S. Code, rarely do I need to go any further than the Constitution, along with, "This is what our Constitution says about the issue. Since it's the supreme Law of the Land, if there's a law or precedent which contradicts this point, it's wrong and needs to be changed."
 

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
Vote me as president in the far-off future. America's first openly gay, militant Atheist, democrat gun toting president. I promise to get rid of the U.S. military, as it is not, and never was, constitutional, bring back and encourage state only militias, get rid of the Navy, the marines, the army, the air force, and get rid of our nuclear arsenal. destroy our foriegn military bases, stay within our borders, dissolve all of our alliances, and keep to our selves. Get rid of all taxes, end all federal agencies, and programs, end the fed, and downsize the executive branch to be less powerful than the legislature, and the judicial.

Also, get rid of border patrol, because we're a nation of immigrants as is, founded by, built by, and lead by, immigrants.

Sounds good... except I don't vote for democrats. sorry
 
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