America's one choice in 2016.................

Ronaldus Magnus was a democrat before he was a republican icon. Conservative, as I define the term, is not a moniker I subscribe to him...he is of Hollywood. I well liked his tax policy re business though.

I don't trust any politician, or like most of them. Most all are progressive, even the ones who claim they are not.

But I will be damned if I vote for one that makes it clear their agenda is to strip every freedom that our constitution protects. I can not stand by while others help put another Obama clone in office.

Even though I respect others choice, let's be clear, choosing the choice to help Billary or anyone to her extreme get elected is being foolish if they think that is helping liberty.

Tricorn said:

Vote all you want. The secret government won’t change.
The people we elect aren’t the ones calling the shots, says Tufts University’s Michael Glennon
http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/20...-won-change/jVSkXrENQlu8vNcBfMn9sL/story.html

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Very good article.

IMO, the next POTUS has already been SELECTED by those who control him/her.

wittmeba said:

Come on, Jeff. We are grossly affected by the extreme diversity of the two parties. They have never been further left and right respectively.

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Was this sarcastic?

sudden valley gunner said:

I read the links. I don't buy much of it.

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No reason to let data change your point of view.

You can't use reason to talk a man out of position he didn't use reason to get into.

sudden valley gunner said:

He grew government. The fact you guys love him don't change the reality check you may need that he grew government.

That is why there is no counter to the many areas of government and tyranny that grew under his watch.

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What reality is check is needed? My post makes quite clear that government spending grew under his watch. A thoughtful person might compare the growth of government to the growth of GDP or some other metric of the cost of government compared to the overall economy.

sudden valley gunner said:

Utahs synapsis isn't all truth.

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I certainly welcome citations to the contrary. It appeared to me the Wiki article from which I pulled the data was quite well footnoted.

Actually, I take that back. Don't bother with citations. This entire discussion of Reagan is off topic.

This is an RKBA/OC forum. So you should not presume that everyone here is opposed to taxes, government programs, military spending, etc. While most libertarians and anarchists may be gun owners, most gun owners are not libertarians nor anarchists. A large number of gun owners are conservatives, a smaller number are actually liberals.

And the fact remains that the two justices Reagan appointed to the SCOTUS came down on the majority side in declaring RKBA to be an individual right not dependent upon nor connected to militia nor military service in any way.

All of Clinton's and Obama's appointments voted against an individual RKBA.

Heller and McDonald have fundamentally shifted the national debate on RKBA to our favor.

Don't tell us that voting doesn't matter. Had gun owners--especially blue-collar, blue-dog, gun owning democrat union members--not voted against Al Gore, Heller would have gone the other way.

The results of the '94 congressional elections had a huge and beneficial impact on RKBA.

And the results of State legislative races over the last 25 years were really the driving force behind the advances we've made on RKBA.

Anyone who can't see that, simply won't see it.

Charles

Jeff. State said:

IMO, the next POTUS has already been SELECTED by those who control him/her.

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That is as good of an excuse not to get involved in the political process to protect and advance RKBA as any.

Which begs the question of what you're doing here. You've thrown in the towel on political activism. You believe the courts are fundamentally corrupt. It is clear the media is opposed to individual RKBA. So what are you doing here?

Oh, that is right. You're agitating for illegal, armed revolution.

Agent provocateur or fool is the only question remaining.

Charles

The DOI was an illegal revolution

OC for ME said:

Ronaldus Magnus was a democrat before he was a republican icon. Conservative, as I define the term, is not a moniker I subscribe to him...he is of Hollywood. I well liked his tax policy re business though.

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It's too bad he raised taxes on everyone else though while at it.

utbagpiper said:

No reason to let data change your point of view.

You can't use reason to talk a man out of position he didn't use reason to get into.

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LOL...ironic.

What reality is check is needed? My post makes quite clear that government spending grew under his watch. A thoughtful person might compare the growth of government to the growth of GDP or some other metric of the cost of government compared to the overall economy.

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Who pays for the growth of government? When the government bubble pops?
Why the tangent if you agree with what I said.

I certainly welcome citations to the contrary. It appeared to me the Wiki article from which I pulled the data was quite well footnoted.

Actually, I take that back. Don't bother with citations. This entire discussion of Reagan is off topic.

This is an RKBA/OC forum. So you should not presume that everyone here is opposed to taxes, government programs, military spending, etc. While most libertarians and anarchists may be gun owners, most gun owners are not libertarians nor anarchists. A large number of gun owners are conservatives, a smaller number are actually liberals.

And the fact remains that the two justices Reagan appointed to the SCOTUS came down on the majority side in declaring RKBA to be an individual right not dependent upon nor connected to militia nor military service in any way.

All of Clinton's and Obama's appointments voted against an individual RKBA.

Heller and McDonald have fundamentally shifted the national debate on RKBA to our favor.

Don't tell us that voting doesn't matter. Had gun owners--especially blue-collar, blue-dog, gun owning democrat union members--not voted against Al Gore, Heller would have gone the other way.

The results of the '94 congressional elections had a huge and beneficial impact on RKBA.

And the results of State legislative races over the last 25 years were really the driving force behind the advances we've made on RKBA.

Anyone who can't see that, simply won't see it.

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Irrelevant to my point.

Those justices also have sided with rights erosion too. The RKBA isn't the only right you know that right?

Let me see why was there a low interest rate? For one? You claim that as an economic sucess, yet the interest rate is lower now? The claims are definitely biased.

Notice nowhere in my comment did I make an anarchist claim. Yet my point still stands Reagan talked libertarian and didn't act it. A liar.

sudden valley gunner said:

Those justices also have sided with rights erosion too. The RKBA isn't the only right you know that right?

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It is the only right we can rightly assume that everyone on this board agrees is a right.

Admittedly, most of us will agree on a good many other issues. But this is an OC/RKBA forum, not a libertarian, anarchist, nor anti-government forum.

And I can and have demonstrated that voting--locally for State legislators, as well as for congressmen and the president--has made a very positive difference for RKBA over the last 25 or 30 years.

That voting has not lead to Libertopia is not proof that voting doesn't work. It may well be evidence that voting reflects the desires of the electorate not to live in Libertopia.

Charles

utbagpiper said:

It is the only right we can rightly assume that everyone on this board agrees is a right.

Admittedly, most of us will agree on a good many other issues. But this is an OC/RKBA forum, not a libertarian, anarchist, nor anti-government forum.

And I can and have demonstrated that voting--locally for State legislators, as well as for congressmen and the president--has made a very positive difference for RKBA over the last 25 or 30 years.

That voting has not lead to Libertopia is not proof that voting doesn't work. It may well be evidence that voting reflects the desires of the electorate not to live in Libertopia.

Charles

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Its also not a pro statist forum.

Its funny how you work so hard against libertarianism and anarchism while not pulling the rafter out of your own eye. Going out of your way to mention it even when it isn't being discussed.

As written the 2A is the right to keep and bear arms against government.

I think maybe you make too many assumptions.

sudden valley gunner said:

Its also not a pro statist forum.

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And notably, you'll have a hard time finding many quotes from me actually advocating for larger, more expensive, more expansive government. Doubtless you think I do a lot of that. But a careful, thoughtful, objective reading of my posts will find they are most often (not always, I am a traditional conservative, after all) simply opposing the kind of radical anarchy that you and a couple of others propose. Quite often, I don't actually take a position on the non-RKBA topics, but simply point out that a pro-OC/pro-RKBA position does not require any particular position on those topics.

Yet again, back to the OP rather than your pet (off) topics, it has been amply demonstrated that voting leads to better results for RKBA than does not voting and letting the worst option get elected.

Charles

utbagpiper said:

And notably, you'll have a hard time finding many quotes from me actually advocating for larger, more expensive, more expansive government. Doubtless you think I do a lot of that. But a careful, thoughtful, objective reading of my posts will find they are most often (not always, I am a traditional conservative, after all) simply opposing the kind of radical anarchy that you and a couple of others propose. Quite often, I don't actually take a position on the non-RKBA topics, but simply point out that a pro-OC/pro-RKBA position does not require any particular position on those topics.

Yet again, back to the OP rather than your pet (off) topics, it has been amply demonstrated that voting leads to better results for RKBA than does not voting and letting the worst option get elected.

Charles

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You spent quite a bit of bytes in this very thread and others excusing bigger government and one for the state. It's funny how often you bring up my anarchist leanings even when I am not discussing it. Typical.

Your last line was hilarious, oh the hypocrisy.

It also has been amply demonstrated voting erodes rights ( this thread isn't specific to RKBA, yet what just happened in Washington?).

utbagpiper said:

Yet again, back to the OP rather than your pet (off) topics, it has been amply demonstrated that voting leads to better results for RKBA than does not voting and letting the worst option get elected.

Charles

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See how the small "victories" in RKBA help when Government Stormtroopers knock down your door after gathering intel from your email, phone calls, health records, etc. etc. etc to "crimes they conceive in legislatures.. They of course have the means of doing this from the THEFT of every working Americans LIFE AKA "income".

Charles YOU will defend THE STATE at all costs to "the individual". IMO you would have been a Loyalist during the American Revolution.

sudden valley gunner said:

You spent quite a bit of bytes in this very thread and others excusing bigger government and one for the state. It's funny how often you bring up my anarchist leanings even when I am not discussing it. Typical.

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Citations are welcome and by your claim should be easy to come by. Lacking that, your claims about me excusing bigger government in this tread are without credibility.

sudden valley gunner said:

It also has been amply demonstrated voting erodes rights ( this thread isn't specific to RKBA, yet what just happened in Washington?).

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No. It has been amply demonstrated that a couple of agent provocateurs or morons (as the case may be) think that a 2nd term of Carter, or an Al Gore presidency, or the Democrats maintaining control of the House after the '94 election would have been a good thing for RKBA.

Charles

Jeff. State said:

See how the small "victories" in RKBA help when Government Stormtroopers knock down your door after gathering intel from your email, phone calls, health records, etc. etc. etc to "crimes they conceive in legislatures.. They of course have the means of doing this from the THEFT of every working Americans LIFE AKA "income".

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That you won't even admit completely to the significant gains in RKBA over the last 25 years shows you are either being dishonest, or are grossly disconnected from reality. But I should not be surprised that an agent provocateur who wants to see law abiding gun owners engaging in violent revolution would also want to discourage them away from voting.

Of course, the mental dissonance of believing the government is reading everything you post and is going to kick in your door, even as you post messages encouraging armed revolution is most telling. Either you are suicidal, or don't really believe the government is very likely to do what you claim they might do.

Jeff. State said:

Charles YOU will defend THE STATE at all costs to "the individual". IMO you would have been a Loyalist during the American Revolution.

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And in my opinion, you are so mindless in your hatred of the government of USA, you'd have cooperated with the Soviets during the cold war. Doubtless you give Snowden a pass. You probably give Fuchs and Greenglass a pass.

I am a loyal American. And I'm proud to be a loyal American. I have 20 years of personal experience with voting improving RKBA. And I've at least watched politics and the effects of voting for some 35 years.

When some jack hat, moron, agent provocateur, or traitor starts calling for making war on my government, I don't have any qualms calling him out for what he is.

Charles

Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post

making war on my government,

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Charles, we are on opposite sides.

I look at todays Government as a dirty, corrupted, inhumane, thieving, incorrigible, lying, murdering, sadistic, rotten to the core, slave owning, diseased, SATANIC, DAMNED WHOR E.

You embrace it as YOUR "life partner".


You are right about one thing Charles, and that is my absolute hatred for what I describe above.
It is far from "mindless" however, and I think any HONEST American would agree with many of the adjectives I used..

utbagpiper said:

Citations are welcome and by your claim should be easy to come by. Lacking that, your claims about me excusing bigger government in this tread are without credibility.

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You excuse Reagans growth in government.

No. It has been amply demonstrated that a couple of agent provocateurs or morons (as the case may be) think that a 2nd term of Carter, or an Al Gore presidency, or the Democrats maintaining control of the House after the '94 election would have been a good thing for RKBA.

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Ah resorted to name calling and untruths. Noone claimed a 2nd term of Carter or an Al Gore presidency would have been better. There is no way to prove they would have been better or not. We can prove government grew under the guys you choose. That People you approve of like Reagan signed RKBA infringement bills.

Jeff. State said:

Charles, we are on opposite sides.

I look at todays Government as a dirty, corrupted, inhumane, thieving, incorrigible, lying, murdering, sadistic, rotten to the core, slave owning, diseased, SATANIC, DAMNED WHOR E.

You embrace it as YOUR "life partner".


You are right about one thing Charles, and that is my absolute hatred for what I describe above.
It is far from "mindless" however, and I think any HONEST American would agree with many of the adjectives I used..

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Thats what makes him a statist he'll defend his government against his country.

What they say about power really is true.
The gov has been honing its skill of corruption for generations.
Just take a look at the history of government spending vs our GDP.
It's simply terrifying. It's a runaway blob that must grow and grow and grow until it collapses under it's own weight.