America's one choice in 2016.................

since9 said:

Your disagreement is noted. If we didn't have a Constitution, then "change" against what the status quo in government wanted would technical be considered "rebellion."

However, we DO have a Constitution. By that simple fact alone, if our government wanders off they mark, and we restore it to that mark, that's not rebellion, and it's certainly not "revolution."

It's restoration, and it's not only perfectly legal, it's the American way, as evidenced by countless court cases exonerating those who stuck to "the supreme Law of the Land."



To be expected. As you observed, "it starts by education." That's Step 1 in restoring our government to its lawful foundation. I exercise that right at least once a week whenever I write my Congressman. Although I'm adept at diving into the depths of U.S. Code, rarely do I need to go any further than the Constitution, along with, "This is what our Constitution says about the issue. Since it's the supreme Law of the Land, if there's a law or precedent which contradicts this point, it's wrong and needs to be changed."

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I would say at this point. It would take a revolution to get back to the limits of a constitution. A major change of thinking and mindset and an elimation of the overwhelming majority of what the federal government.

sudden valley gunner said:

I would say at this point. It would take a revolution to get back to the limits of a constitution. A major change of thinking and mindset and an elimation of the overwhelming majority of what the federal government.

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For those who either never saw the statement from John Pierce or who forgot it:

We are winning in the legislatures, the judiciary and the courts of public opinion. It is a time of great joy for those of us who believe in civil rights! The struggles continue and will always do so but we should move forward happily knowing that we ARE making a difference!

And yet still there are those who would see the cup as half empty and draining.

I spend HOURS that I do not have every day dealing with the *rantings of a few extremists who believe that the _system is irretrievably broken and cannot be fixed or who espouse secession or any number of other fringe issues_.

These topics are NOT welcome here!!! *The Republic is strong, the Constitution is sound and we should be happy today while planning for an even better tomorrow.

There are other forums for fringe issues but they are not here and you are taking time away from actual progress!

Thanks.

John

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Even hinting at a revolution being necessary goes against the grain here.

Grapeshot said:

For those who either never saw the statement from John Pierce or who forgot it:


Even hinting at a revolution being necessary goes against the grain here.

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Just to be clear my mention of revolution is still with the confines of the political system, and has more to do with education than any taking up of arms.

sudden valley gunner said:

Just to be clear my mention of revolution is still with the confines of the political system, and has more to do with education than any taking up of arms.

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Then perhaps it would do well to educate that "We are winning in the legislatures, the judiciary and the courts of public opinion." Suggest that point be made very clear.

Good thing the sexual revolution has already passed...

Grapeshot said:

Then perhaps it would do well to educate that "We are winning in the legislatures, the judiciary and the courts of public opinion." Suggest that point be made very clear.

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sudden valley gunner said:

I would disagree. Revolution isn't the actual war or violence, its the change and the change starts in the heart and mind.

It starts by education. It starts by pointing out whats wrong and hoping for better. It means others will do all they can to demonize you for daring to attack their government. It means they will lie about you, lie about history, and not engage in honest debate.

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sudden valley gunner said:

I would say at this point. It would take a revolution to get back to the limits of a constitution. A major change of thinking and mindset and an elimation of the overwhelming majority of what the federal government.

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This thread isn't specific to the RKBA. Which we just suffered a major loss in Washington. Getting a few crumbs for gun rights doesn't erase the starvation of rights or the march of tyranny.

So far the most we have got is it being legal to beg for privileges. I have seen few actual rights gained that were not already there before the permit scheme went full force.

The state has done a good job at marketing privileges as rights.

To be fair yes we have more gun privileges, but please call it what it is, and do not attempt to snowball the community.

WalkingWolf said:

So far the most we have got is it being legal to beg for privileges. I have seen few actual rights gained that were not already there before the permit scheme went full force.

The state has done a good job at marketing privileges as rights.

To be fair yes we have more gun privileges, but please call it what it is, and do not attempt to snowball the community.

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Who is this "we" you talk about? Certainly can't be gun owners.

Before Florida started the nation down the path of shall issue permits, "we" had exactly one nation with constitutional carry: Vermont. In the last few years, following the shall issue movement, we've seen Alaska and Arizona adopt full constitutional carry. Arkansas has arguably adopted something akin to Constitutional carry. And Wyoming has adopted full Constitutional carry for residents with permit free OC legal for non-residents.

Additionally, Idaho and Montana have constitutional carry outside city limits.

Various constitutional carry bills are pending in something like a half dozen States this year.

Furthermore, Heller and McDonald declare as "settled law" (to use the liberals' favorite phrase for Roe) that the 2nd amendment does protect an individual RKBA without regard to militia service and that said right is enforceable against the States. I don't recall the court specifically citing the overwhelming majority of States with shall issue permit systems at the time, but anyone who has followed other court decisions (including the one that banned capital punishment for those who committed a capital offense while a minor) knows that the current state of local and State laws is a factor in many decisions. It certainly isn't a stretch to suggest that had Heller been heard in the 80s or early 90s, the decision may not have gone our way.

Perhaps most importantly, at the very time that both our opponents, State hunting agencies, and the firearms/hunting industry was predicting a precipitous decline in firearms ownership (and thus political power) as hunting became less common, we actually saw a surge in first generation gun ownership and political activism. Importantly for our actual rights, these new gun owners were not buying hunting rifles. They were getting permits and guns to carry for self defense. The combination of high violent crime in the 80s and 90s, combined with the newly available and increasingly socially acceptable shall issue permits, along with some congressional gun grabber over-reach to make pro-RKBA converts and activists of a whole lot of previous fence sitters.

Coupled with all of this we've seen an expansion of "stand your ground" and "defense of habitation" laws.

Over this time, my home State has moved from discriminatory issue permits to shall issue, permit free car carry, and such strong State preemption as to protect the RKBA of most government employees to carry even on the job and of adult college students to carry to class, and to protect the rights of those working for private employers to keep a gun in their car parked in the company parking lot. We won't get constitutional carry this year. But we will likely remove another small infringement on where guns can be legally OCd without a permit, and probably increase to practical limits protections against losing all guns during bankruptcy.

And just yesterday, the BATFE was forced to turn back its proposed ban on green tipped ammo in the face of overwhelming public and congressional anger at the proposal.

Is the battle over? Of course not. And it never will be. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. Always has been. Always will be.

But objectively, we've made some significant and crucial gains in our RIGHTS, as well as in legal privileges that have enabled millions upon millions of law abiding citizens to defend themselves and loved ones from violent crime. And we have every expectation that we will continue to make progress going forward. Whereas at one time increasing urbanization threatened to erode support for RKBA as hunting decreased, we now are in a position where increasing urbanization actually increases support for RKBA as people demand the legal ability to defend themselves from violent criminals. The future has never looked better for RKBA than it does today.

Be of good cheer and an optimistic countenance.

Charles

sudden valley gunner said:

This thread isn't specific to the RKBA. Which we just suffered a major loss in Washington.

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What major loss is that?

Charles

Privileges are not rights! Only fools and statists are suckered into that propaganda.

Vermont was not the only state that allowed unlicensed carry before Fl took us down this dark privilege path.

You can write a gazillion words claiming permits are a right, you would be wrong. They are a privilege!

Both Illinois, and DC there is no right to bear arms after the SCOTUS decisions. :uhoh:

WalkingWolf said:

Privileges are not rights! Only fools and statists are suckered into that propaganda.

Vermont was not the only state that allowed unlicensed carry before Fl took us down this dark privilege path.

You can write a gazillion words claiming permits are a right, you would be wrong. They are a privilege!

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I made very clear that I recognize permits are privileges. Get past your own biases to read enough to know what I wrote if you are going to presume to respond, much less to lob insults.

I do not believe RKBA is fully respected until a jurisdiction (at least) legally allows both OC and discrete carry without needing a permit.

I could be as brief and offensive as you are by saying only fools and statists think the 2nd amendment leaves room for the government to criminalize possession of defensive arms if those arms get covered by a few mm of fabric.

I stand by my assertion that we have seen a significant expansion of the RIGHT to keep and bear arms in the last 20 to 30 years. In addition to the expansion of jurisdictions to decriminalize permit-free concealed carry, we have picked up the legal ability to carry into National Parks under whatever terms are legal in the State in which that park is located. Grand Canyon National Park is over 1900 miles of land in which constitutional carry (OC and discrete) is legal where it wasn't 20 years ago. That is an areas larger than Rhode Island; almost as large as Delaware. My home State of Utah has over 1900 square miles of National Parks where I can legally OC a gun as long as there is no round in the chamber (Loaded magazine in the gun is legal). With a permit from anywhere in the nation, a person can legally carry a gun fully loaded, OC or discretely in these 1900 square miles in Utah where 10 years ago the feds prohibited them from doing so. When Utah moves to constitutional carry, we'll be able to carry, permit-free into these large areas.

While permits may be considered "dark" in comparison to full legal respect for our RKBA, the path has most demonstrably lead us from much darker days to where we are today which is a growing trend of constitutional carry, a reduction in off limits areas (for both permits and permit-free carry), and much improved public opinion and support for our RKBA than we had 20 to 30 years ago. Politics is the art of the possible. 25 years ago, constitutional carry was not politically possible in most areas. Shall issue permits paved the way to where they are now far more politically achievable. If the path is dark, it is at least headed in the correct direction toward the light.

WalkingWolf said:

Both Illinois, and DC there is no right to bear arms after the SCOTUS decisions.

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Not yet. But both are headed in the right direction.

Things are far from perfect. But they are headed in the right direction and we have made major gains in both the RIGHT to KBA, as well as in legal privileges that must be provided on a non-discriminatory basis, as well as in public opinion and culture.

I don't understand why anyone would deny these gains have been made. Maybe only fools, anarchists, or the willfully blind are the only ones to do so.

Or perhaps, you could express yourself with brevity and directness without lobbing such thinly veiled insults, my brother and friend.

Charles

utbagpiper said:

I made very clear that I recognize permits are privileges. Get past your own biases to read enough to know what I wrote if you are going to presume to respond, much less to lob insults.

I do not believe RKBA is fully respected until a jurisdiction (at least) legally allows both OC and discrete carry without needing a permit.

I could be as brief and offensive as you are by saying only fools and statists think the 2nd amendment leaves room for the government to criminalize possession of defensive arms if those arms get covered by a few mm of fabric.

I stand by my assertion that we have seen a significant expansion of the RIGHT to keep and bear arms in the last 20 to 30 years. In addition to the expansion of jurisdictions to decriminalize permit-free concealed carry, we have picked up the legal ability to carry into National Parks under whatever terms are legal in the State in which that park is located. Grand Canyon National Park is over 1900 miles of land in which constitutional carry (OC and discrete) is legal where it wasn't 20 years ago. That is an areas larger than Rhode Island; almost as large as Delaware. My home State of Utah has over 1900 square miles of National Parks where I can legally OC a gun as long as there is no round in the chamber (Loaded magazine in the gun is legal). With a permit from anywhere in the nation, a person can legally carry a gun fully loaded, OC or discretely in these 1900 square miles in Utah where 10 years ago the feds prohibited them from doing so. When Utah moves to constitutional carry, we'll be able to carry, permit-free into these large areas.

While permits may be considered "dark" in comparison to full legal respect for our RKBA, the path has most demonstrably lead us from much darker days to where we are today which is a growing trend of constitutional carry, a reduction in off limits areas (for both permits and permit-free carry), and much improved public opinion and support for our RKBA than we had 20 to 30 years ago. Politics is the art of the possible. 25 years ago, constitutional carry was not politically possible in most areas. Shall issue permits paved the way to where they are now far more politically achievable. If the path is dark, it is at least headed in the correct direction toward the light.



Not yet. But both are headed in the right direction.

Things are far from perfect. But they are headed in the right direction and we have made major gains in both the RIGHT to KBA, as well as in legal privileges that must be provided on a non-discriminatory basis, as well as in public opinion and culture.

I don't understand why anyone would deny these gains have been made. Maybe only fools, anarchists, or the willfully blind are the only ones to do so.

Or perhaps, you could express yourself with brevity and directness without lobbing such thinly veiled insults, my brother and friend.

Charles

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Now that's funny, I don't care who you are.

In two years Hillary will take office, Scalia will have to step down due to age, and all those precious privileges that fools think are rights will be gone forever.

The only way to beat Hillary is to wake up and smell the coffee. The RKBA has been eroded, and will be gone due to those who like their special elitist privilege.

Nightmare said:

i have a correspondent, better known than any here but in a very different field, that cherishes his authorship for giving him the opportunity to refine his arguments while writing in his non-mathematical popularized style. He doesn't confuse prolixity with precision or acuity.

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I'll bet he also doesn't think that sound bites are sage simply because they are brief.

WalkingWolf said:

In two years Hillary will take office, Scalia will have to step down due to age, and all those precious privileges that fools think are rights will be gone forever.

The only way to beat Hillary is to wake up and smell the coffee. The RKBA has been eroded, and will be gone due to those who like their special elitist privilege.

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Hillary winning and giving the gun hating democrats 12 or more years of controlling judicial appointments would be a major risk, no doubt.

But perhaps you should start by telling us exactly how "waking up and smelling the coffee on RKBA" is going to materially change whether she gets elected or not. Is there really anyone out there who truly values RKBA who doesn't recognize the risk Hillary would pose to RKBA?

And what do you think will protect our RKBA? Or what do you recognize as RKBA?

Charles

WalkingWolf said:

In two years Hillary will take office, Scalia will have to step down due to age, and all those precious privileges that fools think are rights will be gone forever.

The only way to beat Hillary is to wake up and smell the coffee. The RKBA has been eroded, and will be gone due to those who like their special elitist privilege.

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I don't think for a moment that rkba is in a good place right now. But I will agree with charles, there seems to be a lot more people digging in their heels with this issue.

I see it moving in the right direction. We seem to be slowly getting some of our rights back. Unfortunately, for every right we gain we lose 2 more, be it freedom of speech, religion, privacy, etc.

I argue we need to be as vigorous in demanding all of our human rights, not just rkba

J_dazzle23 said:

I don't think for a moment that rkba is in a good place right now. But I will agree with charles, there seems to be a lot more people digging in their heels with this issue.

I see it moving in the right direction. We seem to be slowly getting some of our rights back. Unfortunately, for every right we gain we lose 2 more, be it freedom of speech, religion, privacy, etc.

I argue we need to be as vigorous in demanding all of our human rights, not just rkba

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When the constitution is recognized as written we will be moving in the right direction. State privileges can be taken away by just one federal law, after Scalia steps down. The right and the privileges is running on fumes.

WalkingWolf said:

When the constitution is recognized as written we will be moving in the right direction.

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What does this even mean? Do you think we are ever going to reach a point where a 5 to 4 vote can't fundamentally change something in our nation?

Even you can't agree with me that the 2nd protects both OC and discrete possession of defensive arms. What does it mean to have the constitution recognized as written? When everyone agrees with your particular reading? Or mine? Make me king for a day.

WalkingWolf said:

State privileges can be taken away by just one federal law, after Scalia steps down. The right and the privileges is running on fumes.

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Get over your hang up about permits to carry. I've barely touched on them in my recent posts. Or do you consider State level recognition of constitutional carry to also be "State privileges"?

The fact is, one federal law, if upheld by the courts, can make you eligible for capital punishment for walking around with your cap and ball antique.

If the gun grabbers get both houses, the white house, and the SCOTUS AND either believe the public will support them or decide they don't care about the political ramifications, they can do whatever they want. Fortunately for us, the single most important "principle" for most politicians including gun grabbers is their own tenure in office and the results of the '94 election following the over-reach of the scary-looking-gun-ban and then the 2000 presidential election is still very much in the front of gun grabbers' minds.

Eternal vigilance my friend. But we are moving in the right direction. As our host posted 4 years ago this week:

John Pierce said:

We are winning in the legislatures, the judiciary and the courts of public opinion. It is a time of great joy for those of us who believe in civil rights! The struggles continue and will always do so but we should move forward happily knowing that we ARE making a difference!
And yet still there are those who would see the cup as half empty and draining.

I spend HOURS that I do not have every day dealing with the rantings of a few extremists who believe that the system is irretrievably broken and cannot be fixed or who espouse secession or any number of other fringe issues.

These topics are NOT welcome here!!! The Republic is strong, the Constitution is sound and we should be happy today while planning for an even better tomorrow.

There are other forums for fringe issues but they are not here and you are taking time away from actual progress!

Click to expand...

Charles

J_dazzle23 said:

I don't think for a moment that rkba is in a good place right now. But I will agree with charles, there seems to be a lot more people digging in their heels with this issue.

I see it moving in the right direction. We seem to be slowly getting some of our rights back. Unfortunately, for every right we gain we lose 2 more, be it freedom of speech, religion, privacy, etc.

I argue we need to be as vigorous in demanding all of our human rights, not just rkba

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+1

Even the decisions people are calling a "win". Are not really when you look how they worded their decisions to allow massive regulatory schemes other wise know as infringements.

I am warmed by the decision of states who are starting to ignore the Feds and people who flock to defend people in their state against federal overreach. A lot more education needs to be done.

Politics follows culture until there is enough education of liberty and rights and people who know the proper place of government. Voting for a Hitler or a Stalin is just voting for more evil.

sudden valley gunner said:

Even the decisions people are calling a "win". Are not really when you look how they worded their decisions to allow massive regulatory schemes other wise know as infringements.

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Culture and law don't change overnight. Look at how the legal and cultural landscape for homosexual conduct has changed over the past 40 to 50 years.

Heller and McDonald provide solid foundations on which to build.

sudden valley gunner said:

I am warmed by the decision of states who are starting to ignore the Feds and people who flock to defend people in their state against federal overreach. A lot more education needs to be done.

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I share similar federalist sentiments. And yet I am reminded that when it comes to Illinois, NJ, and even Cali, it will probably be federal requirements that ultimately protect and enforce our RKBA against State level infringement.

sudden valley gunner said:

Politics follows culture until there is enough education of liberty and rights and people who know the proper place of government.

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Careful. You're starting to sound like utbagpiper when I extol the positive cultural benefits that spring from widespread shall issue permits that then lead to legal changes (such as the growing trend of respecting the right to carry a discrete gun without a permit) and positive judicial decisions.

sudden valley gunner said:

Voting for a Hitler or a Stalin is just voting for more evil.

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I don't believe we've actually had many candidates on the ballot who can match those two. I wouldn't be shocked if Obama tried to make a run for competing against them for evil. But to date, he's not done nearly what either of them have. And more importantly, too often, thinking in terms of Hitler and Stalin makes it seem hopeless or as if there is no difference. George W Bush was far from perfect. But his appointments to the SCOTUS have done a much better job of respecting our RKBA so far than have the appointments from the other side of political aisle. Can anyone doubt the outcome of Heller had Gore made a couple of critical appointments instead of having Roberts and Alito on the bench?

Yet some actually seem to think voting for W Bush, or even voting at all is worse than letting the gun grabbers honestly elect Gore.

Charles