WalkingWolf
Regular Member
If you live in Utah and don't want a permit, carry a revolver. Then thumb your nose at them. I have nothing against those that wish to carry with a empty chamber, I just would not do it myself.
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HB 260; Permit-free concealed carry IE Constitutional Carry
- Thread starter utbagpiper
- Start date
utbagpiper
Banned
I'm afraid that those who carry a revolver without a permit in Utah are also required to have at least one empty chamber. The law defining when a gun is loaded imposes two conditions:
1-A gun is loaded if a live round is in firing position. It matters not whether the round can be fired via normal methods, a round in firing position makes the firearm loaded.
2-A handgun (revolver or semi-auto) is deemed loaded if the " the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the [live round] to be fired".
So, a semi-auto is loaded if a live round is in the chamber. If the chamber is empty, the firearm is not loaded even if it has a full magazine because in order to fire a round one has to (at least) rack the slide to chamber a round, and then pull the trigger.
Any revolver is loaded if a live round is in the chamber under the hammer (in firing position). A double action would be considered loaded if a live round were in the 2nd chamber since pulling the trigger would rotate the cylinder, cock the hammer, and fire the round. A single action with the chamber under the hammer empty is still legally unloaded for purposes of Utah law even if all other chambers are full because in order to fire one would have to cock the hammer (thus rotating the chamber) and then pull the trigger.
Those familiar with the North American Arms mini-revolvers will understand that one of those can have every chamber loaded and the gun still be legally un-loaded if one is careful. These revolvers have a safety notch between chambers into which the hammer can be let down. In this position there is no round in firing position and it will require cocking the gun and pulling the trigger to fire a round.
A black powder firearm is considered loaded when it is capped or primed and has powder and a ball or shot in the barrel or chamber.
And yes, this is all a bit complicated.
The language predates my involvement in the RKBA movement, but if I were to guess, it probably originated with the single shot, non-drop-safe revolvers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries with a few changes made over the decades. In my opinion, it is actually a great definition for when a gun is loaded as it gives the gun owner quite a bit more latitude than the simpler, but more strict definition of any live round anywhere in the firearm.
The problem, of course, is that State law does not permit carrying a "loaded" gun without a permit.
Fixing that is in the works, but will probably require a couple of more years' work.
Charles
utbagpiper
Banned
Thank you. Things are really quite good now, from a practical point of view, and getting better year by year both practically and principledly.
Utah has never required any paperwork to buy a gun; no waiting periods. Until the national Brady check, we had no background checks. Nothing but the federal 4473. But we have required a permit to carry a gun in public (back country carry has always been respected, regardless of what technicalities the law may have had).
Twenty-five years ago, said permits were very difficult for the average citizen to get, and if obtained, most often had very strict limits on them as to time and geography. They were intended for a businessman making a cash deposit at a bank. Over the last 25 years we've made permits readily available at low cost and without discrimination for any law abiding citizen regardless of residency. We've expanded permit free carry (loaded, OC or CC) from one's own domicile to also include one's automobile and business. We've got permit free carry (loaded, OC or CC) while hunting. And according to attorney Mitch Vilos, author of "Self Defense Laws of all 50 States", we've got the best total self-defense laws in the nation. (Disclaimer, Mitch is a resident of Utah.)
This year we are trying to get permit free concealed carry of a legally "unloaded" gun passed. We have every intention of continuing to press until we have full constitutional carry recognized in our State law: permit-free, fully loaded, OC, CCC, or CC as the law abiding citizen decides is desirable and appropriate for himself.
GOUtah!, the Utah Shooting Sports Coalition (USSC), and the NRA are all on board with this. So too, is the one Statewide association of carry permit instructors, so far as I know. Women Against Gun Control has also been supportive of these efforts in past years; they are a bit inactive at the moment.
We have a couple of one-man operations that claim to be pro-RKBA that oppose any bill that doesn't deliver the whole enchilada immediately. They have been doing this, fortunately without much success, for several years, even as our gun laws improve year by year thanks to passing incremental bills each and every year. But these few folks are an annoyance and sometimes require some effort to repair damage done after being as abrasive and offensive as possible toward elected officials. Our saving grace is that in most cases they lack the ambition to do much more than send emails or post to their websites so the degree of their offensive conduct usually goes unnoticed.
Charles
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Simple solution, carry a 1858 Remy with all six chambers loaded, using the notches between cylinders. I sometimes carry SA revolvers and I am just as fast with one as a DA revolver. Anybody can become proficient with a SA revolver, anybody competent that is. Any SA revolver can have a timing notch cut into the cylinder between chambers, it will not affect how the revolver operates, and allow fully loaded revolver just like the NAA mini revolver. Some competitors in SASS have had this done with 5 shot SA revolvers so they can compete with 5 rounds, SASS accepts this type of adaption. Plus antique firearms are not targeted in the GFSZA, only firearms.
My 1858 Remy sends a soft 148 grain soft lead ball at 1000fps from a 8 inch barrel, very respectable man stopper.
utbagpiper
Banned
I didn't realize NAA had borrowed that idea from something full sized. I learned something new today.
Of course, the proper solution, in the works, is for us to get the law changed to respect our rights so each law-abiding adult can choose for himself what to carry and how to carry it. I think we are within 5 years of that here in Utah. And while that sounds like a long time, compared to the 25 years that some activists have been working to get us this far, it is pretty close at hand.
Do you suppose if enough States dropped State-level GFSZ laws that the feds would eventually capitulate as they have on marijuana and euthanasia?
Charles
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Until then there are no background checks for a 58 remy, they can also be delivered directly to the buyers door. And until lately were very affordable, but their prices keep going up as people realize what great guns they are. I bought my mine for under 200 bucks, all steel, not the brass frame model. I think they are over 300 bucks now, but sometimes Cabelas has them on sale.
OC for ME
Regular Member
Is there case law that defines this?
Any number of mechanisms, used once, that discharges the projectile? Only one mechanism, used once, that discharges the projectile?
A 1911 in condition one would need two separate mechanical operations, used once each, to discharge the projectile.
utbagpiper
Banned
Not that I'm aware of.
Please read the law I linked. In Utah, a gun is loaded if EITHER of two conditions is met:
1-A round is in firing position.
OR
2-A round can be fired via the manual operation of any mechanism once.
Condition 1 has a round in the firing position and so is legally loaded.
Charles
utbagpiper
Banned
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Mostly cap and ball, cartridge conversions turn the gun into a firearm under federal law, and probably most states. In a GFSZ it would be the same as carrying a modern semi auto as far as the law. I have two cartridge conversion navies 38 spl, that I sometimes carry. But if I know I am going on foot through a GFSZ I carry a pair of cap and balls. In the car and on private property I don't worry about it.
OC for ME
Regular Member
Thanks. I did not ignore (1), it just didn't make any sense given the language of (2). I'm no legal beagle but words do mean things until I read a law.
utbagpiper
Banned
Good and interesting information. Thank you.
What is the reliability of the cap and ball firing? Does rain make a material difference?
And to be clear, the federal GFSZ law and inter-State transfer ban don't apply to these antiques or reproductions?
Charles
utbagpiper
Banned
For some reason it is common for a lot of folks to get fixated on the second condition (two actions to fire) and forget about the first condition (a live round in firing position). I've even seen some argue that the round under the hammer doesn't really count in a revolver since that round won't be fired if the hammer is cocked and the trigger is pulled as that round will rotate out of firing position. But as I read the black letter of the law, it is a round in firing position, without consideration of whether the round could be normally fired. Of course, if the history of the law does go back 100 years to non-drop-safe revolvers (I don't know either way), then the intent of the law would be to keep a round out of the position where a drop of the gun would cause an ND.
Anyway, that's our goofy law. We're working to remove the requirement for a gun to be "unloaded" in order to be carried in public without a permit.
Charles
OC for ME
Regular Member
Why insert (2) if (1) has "pistol, revolver" in it. It seems to me that there is no "or" only redundancy.
utbagpiper
Banned
Why insert (2) if (1) has "pistol, revolver" in it. It seems to me that there is no "or" only redundancy.
There is no redundancy. Notice that (2) contains the word "also". All guns are considered loaded if there is a live round in firing position. Pistols and revolvers are also considered loaded if there is a live round such that the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the handgun to fire. The effect is one test for long guns; two independent tests for handguns. (Notice the importance of the semi-colon in the immediately preceding sentence.) If either test for the handgun is true, then the handgun is loaded.
Simply read the statute straight, without trying to impart any unusual meanings and see if that helps.
Charles
OC for ME
Regular Member
I am not trying to be tedious, but firing position, regardless of the action, is firing position, except the black powder thing. I suspect that the removal of "pistol" from (2) would address the hammer over a empty chamber on a DA revolver.
Anyway, thanks for the insight, interesting concept, this law manufactures. I hope that ya'll in UT get this law tossed into the ash bin of legal history.