WalkingWolf
Regular Member
If you live in Utah and don't want a permit, carry a revolver. Then thumb your nose at them. I have nothing against those that wish to carry with a empty chamber, I just would not do it myself.
If you live in Utah and don't want a permit, carry a revolver. Then thumb your nose at them. I have nothing against those that wish to carry with a empty chamber, I just would not do it myself.
I live in Illinois. We have to have a FOID card in order to own, buy firearms and ammo. You also have to get a conceal and carry permit on top of that. If Illinois trust me to buy firearms and ammo why don't they trust me to carry? Sounds like you good law bidding citizens of Utah are heading down the right road. I hope it spreads to Illinois.
I'm afraid that those who carry a revolver without a permit in Utah are also required to have at least one empty chamber. The law defining when a gun is loaded imposes two conditions:
1-A gun is loaded if a live round is in firing position. It matters not whether the round can be fired via normal methods, a round in firing position makes the firearm loaded.
2-A handgun (revolver or semi-auto) is deemed loaded if the " the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the [live round] to be fired".
So, a semi-auto is loaded if a live round is in the chamber. If the chamber is empty, the firearm is not loaded even if it has a full magazine because in order to fire a round one has to (at least) rack the slide to chamber a round, and then pull the trigger.
Any revolver is loaded if a live round is in the chamber under the hammer (in firing position). A double action would be considered loaded if a live round were in the 2nd chamber since pulling the trigger would rotate the cylinder, cock the hammer, and fire the round. A single action with the chamber under the hammer empty is still legally unloaded for purposes of Utah law even if all other chambers are full because in order to fire one would have to cock the hammer (thus rotating the chamber) and then pull the trigger.
Those familiar with the North American Arms mini-revolvers will understand that one of those can have every chamber loaded and the gun still be legally un-loaded if one is careful. These revolvers have a safety notch between chambers into which the hammer can be let down. In this position there is no round in firing position and it will require cocking the gun and pulling the trigger to fire a round.
A black powder firearm is considered loaded when it is capped or primed and has powder and a ball or shot in the barrel or chamber.
And yes, this is all a bit complicated.
The language predates my involvement in the RKBA movement, but if I were to guess, it probably originated with the single shot, non-drop-safe revolvers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries with a few changes made over the decades. In my opinion, it is actually a great definition for when a gun is loaded as it gives the gun owner quite a bit more latitude than the simpler, but more strict definition of any live round anywhere in the firearm.
The problem, of course, is that State law does not permit carrying a "loaded" gun without a permit.
Fixing that is in the works, but will probably require a couple of more years' work.
Charles
Simple solution, carry a 1858 Remy with all six chambers loaded, using the notches between cylinders.
I didn't realize NAA had borrowed that idea from something full sized. I learned something new today.
Of course, the proper solution, in the works, is for us to get the law changed to respect our rights so each law-abiding adult can choose for himself what to carry and how to carry it. I think we are within 5 years of that here in Utah. And while that sounds like a long time, compared to the 25 years that some activists have been working to get us this far, it is pretty close at hand.
Do you suppose if enough States dropped State-level GFSZ laws that the feds would eventually capitulate as they have on marijuana and euthanasia?
Charles
Is there case law that defines this?(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
Is there case law that defines this?
A 1911 in condition one would need two separate mechanical operations, used once each, to discharge the projectile.
Until then there are no background checks for a 58 remy, they can also be delivered directly to the buyers door. And until lately were very affordable, but their prices keep going up as people realize what great guns they are. I bought my mine for under 200 bucks, all steel, not the brass frame model. I think they are over 300 bucks now, but sometimes Cabelas has them on sale.
Do you carry cap and ball? Or a cartridge converted model?
Charles
Thanks. I did not ignore (1), it just didn't make any sense given the language of (2). I'm no legal beagle but words do mean things until I read a law.Not that I'm aware of.
Please read the law I linked. In Utah, a gun is loaded if EITHER of two conditions is met:
1-A round is in firing position.
OR
2-A round can be fired via the manual operation of any mechanism once.
Condition 1 has a round in the firing position and so is legally loaded.
Charles
Mostly cap and ball, cartridge conversions turn the gun into a firearm under federal law, and probably most states. In a GFSZ it would be the same as carrying a modern semi auto as far as the law. I have two cartridge conversion navies 38 spl, that I sometimes carry. But if I know I am going on foot through a GFSZ I carry a pair of cap and balls. In the car and on private property I don't worry about it.
Thanks. I did not ignore (1), it just didn't make any sense given the language of (2). I'm no legal beagle but words do mean things until I read a law.
Why insert (2) if (1) has "pistol, revolver" in it. It seems to me that there is no "or" only redundancy....
Anyway, that's our goofy law. We're working to remove the requirement for a gun to be "unloaded" in order to be carried in public without a permit.
Charles
76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
Why insert (2) if (1) has "pistol, revolver" in it. It seems to me that there is no "or" only redundancy.
I am not trying to be tedious, but firing position, regardless of the action, is firing position, except the black powder thing. I suspect that the removal of "pistol" from (2) would address the hammer over a empty chamber on a DA revolver.There is no redundancy. Notice that (2) contains the word "also". All guns are considered loaded if there is a live round in firing position. Pistols and revolvers are also considered loaded if there is a live round such that the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the handgun to fire. The effect is one test for long guns; two independent tests for handguns. (Notice the importance of the semi-colon in the immediately preceding sentence.) If either test for the handgun is true, then the handgun is loaded.
Simply read the statute straight, without trying to impart any unusual meanings and see if that helps.
Charles