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Thread: The Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

    http://thehill.com/regulation/legisl...un-rights-bill

    Gun owners would be allowed to carry concealed weapons around the country under new legislation introduced in the Senate.

    The Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act would allow gun owners who have a concealed carry permit in their home state to bring their firearms in any other state with concealed-carry laws.

    "This operates more or less like a driver’s license,” Sen. John Cornyn (Texas), the second-ranking Republican in the upper chamber, told The Hill. "So, for example, if you have a driver’s license in Texas, you can drive in New York, in Utah and other places, subject to the laws of those states."

    Cornyn, a Texas Republican, said this would “eliminate some of the ‘gotcha moments,’ where people inadvertently cross state lines” with guns they are legally allowed to carry in their home state.
    I'm much happier with the Interstate Compact regarding drivers licenses than I would be with a federal law regulating drivers licenses. The same with firearm carry recognition. (If Congress gets the concealed carry nose under the tent flap maybe we can get open carry added later - the mating cry of the incrementalists.)

    But much more importantly, with an interstate compact individual states could withdraw without effecting the operation of the compact in the remaining signatory states. With a federal law Congress can take it away - just as easily as they gave it - and it will effect all of the states.

    I'm not sure why the NRA is supporting the bill but I'll bet it has something to do with incrementalism without considering the most probable unintended consequences.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    The feds should be enforcing the existing law that trumps all others regarding The Second Amendment! Period

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    All SCOTUS judicial review overturned and the Constitution restored. Period.
    Last edited by SovereigntyOrDeath; 02-12-2015 at 10:35 PM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    True that is Skid - what they giveth, that can take away. We don't need more gun law...we need less.

    I'd much prefer that congress pass a law that supersedes all state laws regarding personal carried tools of self-defense with some limited exceptions.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-12-2015 at 10:36 PM.
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    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    what they giveth, that can take away. We don't need more gun law...we need less.
    Exactly. Including taking away our rights already enumerated, by SCOTUS activist judges and judicial review.

    "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

    Plain English, judicially reviewed into something else by SCOTUS.

    The problem with this whole conversation is we already have the right to carry, Openly or Concealed. "shall not be infringed." is plain English.

    Thanks SCOTUS for changing the meaning of the English language as well as the Constitution.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereigntyOrDeath View Post
    The feds should be enforcing the existing law that trumps all others regarding The Second Amendment! Period

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    All SCOTUS judicial review overturned and the Constitution restored. Period.
    Yes the feds should. And I should be a lot more svelte and not be saddled with physical infirmities. (I'm still deciding if I should have one or more sexy babes hanging on to me. Once burned and all that.)

    But in the meantime, an interstate compact would be safer and run less risk of being totally eliminated in one fell swoop. There's already one state that has withdrawn from the intetstate compact on drivers licenses and another that is considering doing so. (It does not mean you can't drive there on your home state license - it means you will need to post bond or pay the fine on the spot instead of being let go on a citation and the citing state relying on your home state doing the collection if you fail to show/fail to pay the fine when found guilty.)

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Yes the feds should. And I should be a lot more svelte and not be saddled with physical infirmities. (I'm still deciding if I should have one or more sexy babes hanging on to me. Once burned and all that.)

    But in the meantime, an interstate compact would be safer and run less risk of being totally eliminated in one fell swoop. There's already one state that has withdrawn from the intetstate compact on drivers licenses and another that is considering doing so. (It does not mean you can't drive there on your home state license - it means you will need to post bond or pay the fine on the spot instead of being let go on a citation and the citing state relying on your home state doing the collection if you fail to show/fail to pay the fine when found guilty.)

    stay safe.
    You can be right all you want by deflecting.

    It does not change the fact that we already have the right to keep and bear arms without infringement.


    SCOTUS was, and is wrong to change that. Period
    Last edited by SovereigntyOrDeath; 02-12-2015 at 10:57 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereigntyOrDeath View Post
    You can be right all you want by deflecting.

    It does not change the fact that we already have the right to keep and bear arms without infringement.


    SCOTUS was, and is wrong to change that. Period
    Never said we didn't have the right. Merely said that we are saddled with multiple infringements and will continue to be for quite some time now because the feds are not going to do what you say they "should" do.

    There's a wonderful argument out there that an Interstate Compact is a treaty between the several States. And we all know that treaties can trump federal law. So why are you against an interstate compact as the way and means to "put things aright"?

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Never said we didn't have the right. Merely said that we are saddled with multiple infringements and will continue to be for quite some time now because the feds are not going to do what you say they "should" do.

    There's a wonderful argument out there that an Interstate Compact is a treaty between the several States. And we all know that treaties can trump federal law. So why are you against an interstate compact as the way and means to "put things aright"?

    stay safe.
    Because:
    Quote Originally Posted by SovereigntyOrDeath View Post
    It does not change the fact that we already have the right to keep and bear arms without infringement.

    SCOTUS was, and is wrong to change that. Period
    In order to cure cancer, it must be eradicated.

    SCOTUS needs to stop changing the Constitution by judicial review and with activist judges.
    "Nullification is the rightful remedy" Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    True that is Skid - what they giveth, that can take away. We don't need more gun law...we need less.

    I'd much prefer that congress pass a law that supersedes all state laws regarding personal carried tools of self-defense with some limited exceptions.
    Congress is fully within its powers of the 14th amendment to protect citizens of the US against State and local infringement of their RKBA. The best way to do that would be to pass a federal law criminalizing any attempt to infringe RKBA and the AG bringing charges against any local cop or prosecutor who attempted to enforce any law that infringed our RKBA.

    Refusing to pass along highway funding to any State that didn't repeal anti-RKBA laws during their next available legislative session would be a fun touch.

    But until we can get that, I'll take a nationwide requirement to recognize my permit over nothing.

    The problem with the InterState compact idea is that States are free to continue completely abridging my RKBA. Thirty-plus States already voluntarily recognize my Utah permit to carry. Several others will allow me to OC or even CC without a permit. But it would sure be nice to be able to travel to California or NY, NJ, or DC without being either disarmed or made a felon for crossing the State line.

    Congress has power to force States to recognize permit free constitutional carry. And it should.

    But congress also has power to force States to recognize permits from out of State as some recognition of RKBA. It ain't perfect. And it won't pass anyway. But I'd take it if I could and then work to get congress to pass nationwide permit-free carry.

    I think the history on State level incrementalism is pretty good for RKBA and several other major issues.

    Charles
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    I'm all for this. Yeah, yeah, the 2A is our national permit, but it hasn't been very effective in keeping us out of jail the recent century. This law creates immersion in left wing States like California, New Jersey, and New York. When concealed carry culture spreads, the licensing requirements shrink. Just look at Nevada! We went from may issue to shall issue to shall issue while qualifying for any pistol and/or revolver to qualifying with any pistol or revolver for universal carry... And it was a democratically controlled legislature! Little laws rule the land, and it takes baby steps to reach the ultimate goal.

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    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickyray9 View Post
    I'm all for this. Yeah, yeah, the 2A is our national permit, but it hasn't been very effective in keeping us out of jail the recent century. This law creates immersion in left wing States like California, New Jersey, and New York. When concealed carry culture spreads, the licensing requirements shrink. Just look at Nevada! We went from may issue to shall issue to shall issue while qualifying for any pistol and/or revolver to qualifying with any pistol or revolver for universal carry... And it was a democratically controlled legislature! Little laws rule the land, and it takes baby steps to reach the ultimate goal.
    I understand that line of thinking, however, We The People are the Sovereign and the Constitution is the Supreme law of the land.

    With that, the problem is SCOTUS and the Judicial Review. SCOTUS judges need to uphold their oaths or be disbarred. Any "interpretations" abhorrent to the Constitution reversed and the Constitution restored, forthwith.

    The Constitutional Oath

    As noted below in Article VI, all federal officials must take an oath in support of the Constitution:

    "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

    The Constitution does not provide the wording for this oath, leaving that to the determination of Congress. From 1789 until 1861, this oath was, "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the Constitution of the United States." During the 1860s, this oath was altered several times before Congress settled on the text used today, which is set out at 5 U. S. C. § 3331. This oath is now taken by all federal employees, other than the President:

    "I, _________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

    n December 1990, the Judicial Improvements Act of 1990 replaced the phrase "according to the best of my abilities and understanding, agreeably to the Constitution" with "under the Constitution." The revised Judicial Oath, found at 28 U. S. C. § 453, reads:


    "I, _________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent upon me as _________ under the Constitution and laws of the United States. So help me God."


    I don't see where it says to amend the Constitution. This needs to be stopped forthwith before the Constitution and our Rights will be safe.

    Go straight to the cancer and eradicate it, nipping at the edges does not work, and won't work.

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    Plain, simple language that has been usurped by SCOTUS
    Last edited by SovereigntyOrDeath; 02-13-2015 at 01:23 AM.
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    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    WHEREFORE, instead of gazing at each other with suspicious or doubtful curiosity; let each of us, hold out to his neighbour the hearty hand of friendship, and unite in drawing a line, which, like an act of oblivion shall bury in forgetfulness every former dissension. Let the names of Whig and Tory be extinct; and let none other be heard among us, than those of A GOOD CITIZEN, AN OPEN AND RESOLUTE FRIEND, AND A VIRTUOUS SUPPORTER OF THE RIGHTS OF MANKIND AND OF THE FREE AND INDEPENDANT STATES OF AMERICA.
    COMMON SENSE by Thomas Paine


    Where are we going to draw the line?

    Our Constitution has been usurped by SCOTUS

    Constitutional Carry is not an oxymoron!
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-13-2015 at 08:09 AM. Reason: Deleted shouting
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    There are plenty of court cases that show the 14th amendment was a grant to erase state powers even when they went against the federal constitutions "rights".

    To grant the power of the feds to do this by the 14th would erase the limited powers intended by the rest of the document and make it null and void.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    A few obvious observations and not necessarily arguments.

    This won't become law until the ***** nazi psychopath in the white house leaves and a neocon is selected. Then again it could be attached to some form of "must pass" legislation earlier than that.

    Only a few states in their history have applied the right to bear arms to concealed carry, only the VTSC case is respected today. I disagree with this, but that is the legal tradition.

    Slave states like NJ and other despotic strongholds like NYC will put as many restrictions imaginable on carry, possibly even ending their permitting system until forced to allow it like in IL and DC.

    Courts will eventually strike their bans down, carry will become old news, more states will go to permitless carry. Gun rights will continue to make its trip to total victory even as freedom, privacy, and standard of living go to hell nationwide. A "bone" our rulers will allow us to gnaw on. We may go to the cattle cars armed!
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-15-2015 at 08:10 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    With a federal law Congress can take it away - just as easily as they gave it - and it will effect all of the states.
    You mean like that law in "the supreme Law of the Land" which states "the right of the people SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED?"

    That law? The one that's infringed every time any state or federal legislature passes any law regulating the purchase, storage, or transport of an arm?
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    You mean like that law in "the supreme Law of the Land" which states "the right of the people SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED?"

    That law? The one that's infringed every time any state or federal legislature passes any law regulating the purchase, storage, or transport of an arm?
    Jeeze, it must be heart-renderingly depressing to live in a world where reality is so distorted from the absolutist ideal.

    I guess in your world a mentally ill person intent on causing harm to others cannot have their right to keep and bear arms restricted even when on their way to cause harm to others by using the firearm they are keeping and bearing. Or after they have finished harming others, either. It does seem your world is a bit more "sporty" than mine.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    You mean like that law in "the supreme Law of the Land" which states "the right of the people SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED?"

    That law? The one that's infringed every time any state or federal legislature passes any law regulating the purchase, storage, or transport of an arm?
    Exactly. It seems some people do not want to get to the root of the problem, they just want to pussyfoot.

    pussyfoot
    verb pussy·foot \ˈpu̇-sē-ˌfu̇t\

    : to avoid making a definite decision or stating a definite opinion because of fear, doubt, etc.
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pussyfoot
    Last edited by SovereigntyOrDeath; 02-15-2015 at 11:06 PM.
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    Ponder these cases...

    Hertado v California, 110 US 516, The US Supreme court states very plainly.

    " The State cannot diminish rights of the people""

    Davis v Wechsler, 263 US 22 @ 24

    " The assertion of Federal rights, when plainly and reasonably made, is not to be defeated under the name of local practices....

    Local practices being the state... and its unconstitutional statutes, ordinances, etc...

    And my favorite and the most basic of all...-- Miller v US, 230 F 486 at 489

    " The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime"

    It would appear that these cases have no bearing in states like NJ,NY, CA, Maryland.
    Are the aforementioned states not part of the Federal Government nor do they follow the ruling's of the Supreme Court?

    My .02

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Jeeze, it must be heart-renderingly depressing to live in a world where reality is so distorted from the absolutist ideal.

    I guess in your world a mentally ill person intent on causing harm to others cannot have their right to keep and bear arms restricted even when on their way to cause harm to others by using the firearm they are keeping and bearing. Or after they have finished harming others, either. It does seem your world is a bit more "sporty" than mine.

    stay safe.

    Yea cuz in your world those restrictions have worked so well.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Jeeze, it must be heart-renderingly depressing to live in a world where reality is so distorted from the absolutist ideal.

    I guess in your world a mentally ill person intent on causing harm to others cannot have their right to keep and bear arms restricted even when on their way to cause harm to others by using the firearm they are keeping and bearing. Or after they have finished harming others, either. It does seem your world is a bit more "sporty" than mine.

    stay safe.
    Im sure you just forgot to signify sarcasm. Im positive you make this irrelevant point in a fashon mocking the antis... yes?

  21. #21
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    http://thehill.com/regulation/legisl...un-rights-bill



    I'm much happier with the Interstate Compact regarding drivers licenses than I would be with a federal law regulating drivers licenses. The same with firearm carry recognition. (If Congress gets the concealed carry nose under the tent flap maybe we can get open carry added later - the mating cry of the incrementalists.)

    But much more importantly, with an interstate compact individual states could withdraw without effecting the operation of the compact in the remaining signatory states. With a federal law Congress can take it away - just as easily as they gave it - and it will effect all of the states.

    I'm not sure why the NRA is supporting the bill but I'll bet it has something to do with incrementalism without considering the most probable unintended consequences.

    stay safe.
    You and I agree completely. This is a states issue, not a central government issue, and your comment about severability is correct.
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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Is it a states issue? When a state does cross a line and make laws in defiance of the constitution who is to intervene?
    I personally love the idea of one of the government branches stopping a state from jailing someone who is acting lawfully in one state just for crossing into another state. I have a personal stake in it. I frequently have to cross into the hell that is Maryland. I have to be mindful when I leave my house. Am I sure I don't need to cross enemy borders during my errands? lol it sucks.

    On the other hand I'm quite wary of the fed's way of fixing anything. I worry about it turning sour by becoming a Federal permitting process or something.
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  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Is it a states issue? When a state does cross a line and make laws in defiance of the constitution who is to intervene?
    I personally love the idea of one of the government branches stopping a state from jailing someone who is acting lawfully in one state just for crossing into another state. I have a personal stake in it. I frequently have to cross into the hell that is Maryland. I have to be mindful when I leave my house. Am I sure I don't need to cross enemy borders during my errands? lol it sucks.

    On the other hand I'm quite wary of the fed's way of fixing anything. I worry about it turning sour by becoming a Federal permitting process or something.
    Laws do very from state to state, hence what may be legal in one state is not necessarily so in another. That is not just restricted to guns/RKBA - i.e. max speed limit, age to consume alcohol, age to drive, etc., etc.

    Too remember, that what the government grants, the government can take away.
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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Laws do very from state to state, hence what may be legal in one state is not necessarily so in another. That is not just restricted to guns/RKBA - i.e. max speed limit, age to consume alcohol, age to drive, etc., etc.

    Too remember, that what the government grants, the government can take away.
    I understand laws vary. My point was if a state law defies the constitution we should expect the Fed Gov to step in. IMHO some state's gun laws do in fact defy the constitution and therefore intervention is warranted.

    I haven't read the law, only the write up about it. However I would hope it would not be a situation of the "government granting" something but the government telling the state it can't do a wrong it is currently doing.

    I am wary of it as I said, and would like to have a detailed explanation of exactly what it does before endorsing it.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    I understand laws vary. My point was if a state law defies the constitution we should expect the Fed Gov to step in. IMHO some state's gun laws do in fact defy the constitution and therefore intervention is warranted.

    I haven't read the law, only the write up about it. However I would hope it would not be a situation of the "government granting" something but the government telling the state it can't do a wrong it is currently doing.

    I am wary of it as I said, and would like to have a detailed explanation of exactly what it does before endorsing it.
    Appreciate what you are saying; however, what we must keep in mind is that the Constitution is for the most part, particularly so in the case of the 2nd Amendment, a restriction on the federal government.

    Our founding fathers told the federal government - hands off!
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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