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Thread: Honor Guard Threatens Church Safety

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    Honor Guard Threatens Church Safety

    New pastor of St. Philip Catholic church in Reed City is up to the task of protecting his parishioners. While conducting his first funeral he attempted to bar the local VFW Honor Guard from the property because the firing squad came with their M1's, intending to conduct a salute upon the casket exiting the church. Following much discussion with the leader of the Honor Guard he allowed them to conduct the ritual THIS TIME ONLY. He will henceforth demand a no firearm policy on church property with no exceptions. It wasn't reported what God thought about all this posturing.

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    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tenletters View Post
    New pastor of St. Philip Catholic church in Reed City is up to the task of protecting his parishioners. While conducting his first funeral he attempted to bar the local VFW Honor Guard from the property because the firing squad came with their M1's, intending to conduct a salute upon the casket exiting the church. Following much discussion with the leader of the Honor Guard he allowed them to conduct the ritual THIS TIME ONLY. He will henceforth demand a no firearm policy on church property with no exceptions. It wasn't reported what God thought about all this posturing.
    Time to find another church. Give the pastor a "No guns no money" card, then walk to the door, remove your shoes and dust them off as you leave.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Source?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Don't they fire blanks?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quite frankly, the pastor was correct and appropriate in asking that the Honor Guard not fire off their guns as/after the casket exited the church.

    The three-volley (it is NOT a 21-gun salute!!) salute is rendered at graveside after the service and benediction but before the flag is removed from the casket and folded.

    http://www.history.army.mil/html/for...Ceremonies.pdf Chapter 14. Page 14-8, paragraph o.

    Please contact the involved VFW Honor Guard unit and suggest (as strongly as you can) that they read and follow the instruction manual.

    You might also want to take aside the new pastor of St. Philip Catholic Church in Reed City and give him a box of Depends so that he does not embarass himself when there is ceremonial gunfire behind him at the next military funeral he attends.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    I am pleased to read of another vets' group using M1, as my Post does.

    And we rifle salute at the door of the church as we don't inter until after the thaw. According to our manual of ceremonies, we do it as we have always done it, since before the 2000 legislation requiring military representatives on request, then we assist in their ceremonial protocol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I am pleased to read of another vets' group using M1, as my Post does.

    And we rifle salute at the door of the church as we don't inter until after the thaw. According to our manual of ceremonies, we do it as we have always done it, since before the 2000 legislation requiring military representatives on request, then we assist in their ceremonial protocol.

    Right you are sir! Also when a body is to be cremated after the mass there is no (obviously) "graveside" service. The source for this was the Post Commander, himself a Catholic and church member.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I did not realize that backhoes are not available in the Frozen North. But local custom is local custom and deserves to be respected. (My experience only goes up as far as Orino Me, where the local Middle and High School kids trampled down the snow to make room for the graveside service. Different strokes for different folks.)

    Given the pastor's reticence would consideration ever be given to moving the volley salute back away from the door of the church to the rear of the hearse? Per Mapquest there is a short walkway between the main door and the parking lot.

    I'm just asking to see if some sort of compromise might be possible.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Quote Originally Posted by tenletters View Post
    Right you are sir! Also when a body is to be cremated after the mass there is no (obviously) "graveside" service. The source for this was the Post Commander, himself a Catholic and church member.
    We do interments of cremains with honors. Actually they're quite popular, not least for the cost difference.

    I imagine that a backhoe could be used around the periphery of the cemetery, but quite impossible in the interior where the family plots are. A backhoe alone can no more break frozen ground than cement pavement, that's why jackhammers are used. Our current observed (by the plumber) frost depth is >30". A grave costs $600. When I asked about right now, the guy laughed.

    Frost depth confirmed http://www.crh.noaa.gov/ncrfc/conten...pe=OB&depth=02
    Last edited by Nightmare; 02-14-2015 at 03:30 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tenletters View Post
    Right you are sir! Also when a body is to be cremated after the mass there is no (obviously) "graveside" service. The source for this was the Post Commander, himself a Catholic and church member.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    We do interments of cremains with honors. Actually they're quite popular, not least for the cost difference.

    I imagine that a backhoe could be used around the periphery of the cemetery, but quite impossible in the interior where the family plots are. A backhoe alone can no more break frozen ground than cement pavement, that's why jackhammers are used. Our current observed (by the plumber) frost depth is >30". A grave costs $600. When I asked about right now, the guy laughed.

    Frost depth confirmed http://www.crh.noaa.gov/ncrfc/conten...pe=OB&depth=02
    Thank you for informing me of the manner of choice in your area. Just for the record this http://www.bobcat.com/excavators/models/e50 can be fitted with a pneumatic jackhammer. Just saying there are ways to get things done without using a foxhole cratering charge and mats. Yes, because it can be done does not mean it should be done.

    When a body is taken to be cremated it is transported in a casket to the crematorium where the flag is removed and folded. Same-same as a graveside service as regards rendering of honors. Or do you allow the body to travel from the church to the crematorium without escort and honors?

    The internment of the cremains is also eligible for honors. Again, the manual tells you how to do it.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    the internment of the cremains is also eligible for honors. Again, the manual tells you how to do it.

    Stay safe.
    lol
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Thank you for informing me of the manner of choice in your area. Just for the record this http://www.bobcat.com/excavators/models/e50 can be fitted with a pneumatic jackhammer. Just saying there are ways to get things done without using a foxhole cratering charge and mats. Yes, because it can be done does not mean it should be done.

    When a body is taken to be cremated it is transported in a casket to the crematorium where the flag is removed and folded. Same-same as a graveside service as regards rendering of honors. Or do you allow the body to travel from the church to the crematorium without escort and honors?

    The internment of the cremains is also eligible for honors. Again, the manual tells you how to do it.

    stay safe.
    You went from thinking you are right to trying to prove your point. Just please stop.

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    I did not know that skid could tap dance.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I did not know that skid could tap dance.
    Depends on who's the piper.
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    Does that include LEOs too? You know how those pesky guns are liable to just go on a shooting spree all on their own, right? SO that would mean any gun brought into the church is a threat, right? The priest should just advertise that the offering plate on Sunday is up for grabs by any thug who may not like his policy.
    Last edited by Ken56; 02-16-2015 at 10:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    http://www.history.army.mil/html/for...Ceremonies.pdf Chapter 14. Page 14-8, paragraph o.
    You might also want to take aside the new pastor of St. Philip Catholic Church in Reed City and give him a box of Depends so that he does not embarass himself when there is ceremonial gunfire behind him at the next military funeral he attends.

    stay safe.
    I did hundreds of Military funerals when I served. The manual is the norm for Military Funerals, and the VFW is not bound by it. They have their own rulebook.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    According to our manual of ceremonies, we do it as we have always done it, since before the 2000 legislation requiring military representatives on request, then we assist in their ceremonial protocol.
    Never did that. If the VFW handled it, they did. If it was my op, it was done by Military. Two different services. All is good.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    we don't inter until after the thaw.
    Off topic and probably stupid question, but what is done with the body until that time? Does the funeral home have sufficient refrigerated/frozen storage to hold all who pass during the winter months?

    I'm assuming fairly small town as most urban cemeteries are designed to get backhoes into every plot.

    Is there typically a graveside service when the internment takes place?

    Just curious.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Off topic and probably stupid question, but what is done with the body until that time? Does the funeral home have sufficient refrigerated/frozen storage to hold all who pass during the winter months?
    Yes. One particular funeral home handles the Island with ~700 year around residents, much reduced in the winter to 300 or 400. Yes the deceased are refrigerated until spring and a memorial service is held.
    I'm assuming fairly small town as most urban cemeteries are designed to get backhoes into every plot. Is there typically a graveside service when the internment takes place? Just curious. Charles
    Yes. Funerals and interment gravesides are community do's.

    For Memorial Day the entire community participates, with speeches and patriotic student essays, sermon and sing along in the church nearest the cemetery. The the American Legion Post leads the community a half mile to the cemetery where all the veterans' graves are marked with a service badge. An old fisherman with a wonderfully resonant gravelly voice reads the names of all two hundred Islanders that have died in service. Prayers, rifle salute, taps echoed, and pipers. Then march to the lake side for a wreath laying and more salutes. We like to say that we're still living back in the Forties and Fifties.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    As a member of the VFW and the Honor a Guard for our post, we have done MANY 3 volley services, outside the church door as well as outside the funeral home door, at the request of the family.

    Yes there is a manual for such things, and we follow it until the family asks for a slight alteration. We have done these services with military guard present, and sometimes even joining us if needed.

    Sometimes the rule book is more of a guide...

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    Honor Guard Threatens Church Safety

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I did not know that skid could tap dance.
    Lol! Heaven forbid he admit that he may have spoken without knowing 100% of the facts. Instead of simply saying "oh, never knew that." He'll drone on until hell freezes over at times. Sad when even the mods here at OCDO partake in the troll fest this forum is becoming.

    Even worse when it concerns honoring our veterans.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 02-17-2015 at 03:02 AM.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Off topic and probably stupid question, but what is done with the body until that time? Does the funeral home have sufficient refrigerated/frozen storage to hold all who pass during the winter months?

    I'm assuming fairly small town as most urban cemeteries are designed to get backhoes into every plot.

    Is there typically a graveside service when the internment takes place?

    Just curious.

    Charles
    It is WI, no mechanical refrigeration is required...just stack them up outside and throw a tarp over them.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    It is WI, no mechanical refrigeration is required...just stack them up outside and throw a tarp over them.
    LOL Good idea and ambient temperature storage does work in enclosed areas, like my garage where the soda pop in the beer cooler explodes regularly - a spring cleaning chore. Outside the foxes and coyotes gnaw most anything that interests them.

    I prefer foxes to not because their primary prey are mice that are the obligate Lyme disease vector.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Yes. One particular funeral home handles the Island with ~700 year around residents, much reduced in the winter to 300 or 400. Yes the deceased are refrigerated until spring and a memorial service is held.Yes. Funerals and interment gravesides are community do's.

    For Memorial Day the entire community participates, with speeches and patriotic student essays, sermon and sing along in the church nearest the cemetery. The the American Legion Post leads the community a half mile to the cemetery where all the veterans' graves are marked with a service badge. An old fisherman with a wonderfully resonant gravelly voice reads the names of all two hundred Islanders that have died in service. Prayers, rifle salute, taps echoed, and pipers. Then march to the lake side for a wreath laying and more salutes. We like to say that we're still living back in the Forties and Fifties.
    Sounds like an amazing and beautiful community. Thanks for the info.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Sounds like an amazing and beautiful community. Thanks for the info. Charles
    Do an image search for Washington Island, Wisconsin and our ferry terminal and road at Northport, Wisconsin.
    ,
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  25. #25
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    Honor Guard Threatens Church Safety

    ^^^ Man I'm getting cold just looking at the map!
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washi...nd_(Wisconsin)




    Mean while its a "nippy" 72 F here in the valley of the sun...

    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 02-17-2015 at 05:21 PM.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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