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Honor Guard Threatens Church Safety

tenletters

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
20
Location
Michigan
New pastor of St. Philip Catholic church in Reed City is up to the task of protecting his parishioners. While conducting his first funeral he attempted to bar the local VFW Honor Guard from the property because the firing squad came with their M1's, intending to conduct a salute upon the casket exiting the church. Following much discussion with the leader of the Honor Guard he allowed them to conduct the ritual THIS TIME ONLY. He will henceforth demand a no firearm policy on church property with no exceptions. It wasn't reported what God thought about all this posturing.
 

OC Freedom

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Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
646
Location
ADA County, ID
New pastor of St. Philip Catholic church in Reed City is up to the task of protecting his parishioners. While conducting his first funeral he attempted to bar the local VFW Honor Guard from the property because the firing squad came with their M1's, intending to conduct a salute upon the casket exiting the church. Following much discussion with the leader of the Honor Guard he allowed them to conduct the ritual THIS TIME ONLY. He will henceforth demand a no firearm policy on church property with no exceptions. It wasn't reported what God thought about all this posturing.

Time to find another church. Give the pastor a "No guns no money" card, then walk to the door, remove your shoes and dust them off as you leave.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Quite frankly, the pastor was correct and appropriate in asking that the Honor Guard not fire off their guns as/after the casket exited the church.

The three-volley (it is NOT a 21-gun salute!!) salute is rendered at graveside after the service and benediction but before the flag is removed from the casket and folded.

http://www.history.army.mil/html/forcestruc/FM_3-21.5_Drill_and_Ceremonies.pdf Chapter 14. Page 14-8, paragraph o.

Please contact the involved VFW Honor Guard unit and suggest (as strongly as you can) that they read and follow the instruction manual.

You might also want to take aside the new pastor of St. Philip Catholic Church in Reed City and give him a box of Depends so that he does not embarass himself when there is ceremonial gunfire behind him at the next military funeral he attends.

stay safe.
 

tenletters

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
20
Location
Michigan
I am pleased to read of another vets' group using M1, as my Post does.

And we rifle salute at the door of the church as we don't inter until after the thaw. According to our manual of ceremonies, we do it as we have always done it, since before the 2000 legislation requiring military representatives on request, then we assist in their ceremonial protocol.


Right you are sir! Also when a body is to be cremated after the mass there is no (obviously) "graveside" service. The source for this was the Post Commander, himself a Catholic and church member.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
I did not realize that backhoes are not available in the Frozen North. But local custom is local custom and deserves to be respected. (My experience only goes up as far as Orino Me, where the local Middle and High School kids trampled down the snow to make room for the graveside service. Different strokes for different folks.)

Given the pastor's reticence would consideration ever be given to moving the volley salute back away from the door of the church to the rear of the hearse? Per Mapquest there is a short walkway between the main door and the parking lot.

I'm just asking to see if some sort of compromise might be possible.

stay safe.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
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Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Right you are sir! Also when a body is to be cremated after the mass there is no (obviously) "graveside" service. The source for this was the Post Commander, himself a Catholic and church member.

We do interments of cremains with honors. Actually they're quite popular, not least for the cost difference.

I imagine that a backhoe could be used around the periphery of the cemetery, but quite impossible in the interior where the family plots are. A backhoe alone can no more break frozen ground than cement pavement, that's why jackhammers are used. Our current observed (by the plumber) frost depth is >30". A grave costs $600. When I asked about right now, the guy laughed.

Frost depth confirmed http://www.crh.noaa.gov/ncrfc/content/soilTemp/soilTemp_gd.php?pe=OB&depth=02

Thank you for informing me of the manner of choice in your area. Just for the record this http://www.bobcat.com/excavators/models/e50 can be fitted with a pneumatic jackhammer. Just saying there are ways to get things done without using a foxhole cratering charge and mats.:D Yes, because it can be done does not mean it should be done.

When a body is taken to be cremated it is transported in a casket to the crematorium where the flag is removed and folded. Same-same as a graveside service as regards rendering of honors. Or do you allow the body to travel from the church to the crematorium without escort and honors?

The internment of the cremains is also eligible for honors. Again, the manual tells you how to do it.

stay safe.
 

wizzi01

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
127
Location
Detroit
Thank you for informing me of the manner of choice in your area. Just for the record this http://www.bobcat.com/excavators/models/e50 can be fitted with a pneumatic jackhammer. Just saying there are ways to get things done without using a foxhole cratering charge and mats.:D Yes, because it can be done does not mean it should be done.

When a body is taken to be cremated it is transported in a casket to the crematorium where the flag is removed and folded. Same-same as a graveside service as regards rendering of honors. Or do you allow the body to travel from the church to the crematorium without escort and honors?

The internment of the cremains is also eligible for honors. Again, the manual tells you how to do it.

stay safe.

You went from thinking you are right to trying to prove your point. Just please stop.
 

Ken56

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
368
Location
Dandridge, TN
Does that include LEOs too? You know how those pesky guns are liable to just go on a shooting spree all on their own, right? SO that would mean any gun brought into the church is a threat, right? The priest should just advertise that the offering plate on Sunday is up for grabs by any thug who may not like his policy.
 
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MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
http://www.history.army.mil/html/forcestruc/FM_3-21.5_Drill_and_Ceremonies.pdf Chapter 14. Page 14-8, paragraph o.
You might also want to take aside the new pastor of St. Philip Catholic Church in Reed City and give him a box of Depends so that he does not embarass himself when there is ceremonial gunfire behind him at the next military funeral he attends.

stay safe.

I did hundreds of Military funerals when I served. The manual is the norm for Military Funerals, and the VFW is not bound by it. They have their own rulebook.

According to our manual of ceremonies, we do it as we have always done it, since before the 2000 legislation requiring military representatives on request, then we assist in their ceremonial protocol.

Never did that. If the VFW handled it, they did. If it was my op, it was done by Military. Two different services. All is good.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
we don't inter until after the thaw.

Off topic and probably stupid question, but what is done with the body until that time? Does the funeral home have sufficient refrigerated/frozen storage to hold all who pass during the winter months?

I'm assuming fairly small town as most urban cemeteries are designed to get backhoes into every plot.

Is there typically a graveside service when the internment takes place?

Just curious.

Charles
 

xd shooter

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
333
Location
usa
As a member of the VFW and the Honor a Guard for our post, we have done MANY 3 volley services, outside the church door as well as outside the funeral home door, at the request of the family.

Yes there is a manual for such things, and we follow it until the family asks for a slight alteration. We have done these services with military guard present, and sometimes even joining us if needed.

Sometimes the rule book is more of a guide... :)
 

FreeInAZ

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
2,508
Location
Secret Bunker
I did not know that skid could tap dance. ;)

Lol! Heaven forbid he admit that he may have spoken without knowing 100% of the facts. Instead of simply saying "oh, never knew that." He'll drone on until hell freezes over at times. Sad when even the mods here at OCDO partake in the troll fest this forum is becoming. :(

Even worse when it concerns honoring our veterans. :(
 
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OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Off topic and probably stupid question, but what is done with the body until that time? Does the funeral home have sufficient refrigerated/frozen storage to hold all who pass during the winter months?

I'm assuming fairly small town as most urban cemeteries are designed to get backhoes into every plot.

Is there typically a graveside service when the internment takes place?

Just curious.

Charles
It is WI, no mechanical refrigeration is required...just stack them up outside and throw a tarp over them. ;)
 

utbagpiper

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Messages
4,061
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Utah
Yes. One particular funeral home handles the Island with ~700 year around residents, much reduced in the winter to 300 or 400. Yes the deceased are refrigerated until spring and a memorial service is held.Yes. Funerals and interment gravesides are community do's.

For Memorial Day the entire community participates, with speeches and patriotic student essays, sermon and sing along in the church nearest the cemetery. The the American Legion Post leads the community a half mile to the cemetery where all the veterans' graves are marked with a service badge. An old fisherman with a wonderfully resonant gravelly voice reads the names of all two hundred Islanders that have died in service. Prayers, rifle salute, taps echoed, and pipers. Then march to the lake side for a wreath laying and more salutes. We like to say that we're still living back in the Forties and Fifties.

Sounds like an amazing and beautiful community. Thanks for the info.

Charles
 

FreeInAZ

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
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Secret Bunker
^^^ Man I'm getting cold just looking at the map!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Island_(Wisconsin)
6eb2de5e0310c6d4b1628f69a3ec8432.jpg



21dce8c955984907ea3c256ccec16954.jpg

Mean while its a "nippy" 72 F here in the valley of the sun...

1065d29b4b7b9ca88aa55ca98e200a7a.jpg
 
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MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
It is WI, no mechanical refrigeration is required...just stack them up outside and throw a tarp over them. ;)

I have done a few burials-at-sea. On one occasion a storm canceled the service and was postponed for two weeks. They kept the casket strapped to my rocket loader on the ASROC deck. We covered him with visqueen so water would not get in the casket as it was covered with six inch holes. We swept and mopped around him and got quite close to our temporary "visitor". The seas calmed down and we dropped him over the side with full honors.
 
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