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Thread: Changes to OC?

  1. #1
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    Changes to OC?

    So I went into bass pro today to go shoot, was talking with the guy and he had told me that now you have to have a CCW to open carry?

    Is this true? Did they change the law to now to open carry you must have a CCW? I know I had saw online about the change that a city cannot ban open carry because it is a state law, but if someone could inform me about that would be great.

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    You basically have it right, if a city has banned OC, you can anyways if you have a CCW permit.

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    I'm talking about cities where it's not banned. Like Independence, he basically told me you have to have your CCW to open carry no matter where you go whether it's banned or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unknownskies View Post
    I'm talking about cities where it's not banned. Like Independence, he basically told me you have to have your CCW to open carry no matter where you go whether it's banned or not.
    SB656 was passed that allows the open carry of firearms with a CCW in cities that have outlawed such activities, there is no change regarding cities that have no ordinances against open carry.

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    Ok so even though I don't have a CCW if I OC in Independence is legal correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by unknownskies View Post
    Ok so even though I don't have a CCW if I OC in Independence is legal correct?
    If Independence has no ordinances against open carrying a weapon within the city limits, you can open carry without a CCW. I am not a lawyer.

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    Regular Member fjpro2a's Avatar
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    Not Easy, huh?

    Unknownskies,
    See it difficult it is to get a direct answer to your question? This seems to be the norm in most cases. I honestly don't know why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by logunowner View Post
    I am not a lawyer.
    obviously, i could read, and understand, your post.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    To put it a slightly different way:
    Missouri CCW laws created state preemption of CC, ie cities could not enforce any ordinance against CC that was more restrictive than state law on the matter.
    Missouri had no state preemption on OC (actually state law was moot as to OC so no state statute restrictions) but cities could pass whatever limitations they wanted on OC.
    SB636 created state preemption as to OC for anyone with a valid CC permit/license.

    So, no CC license/permit, nothing changes. You can still OC wherever and however you could before SB636 and can't wherever it is illegal by ordinance.

    If you do have a CC license/permits (MO recognizes all other states' CC license/permit) state law now covers you on OC and no municipality can pass a law more restrictive than state law which as a practical matter means that you can OC/CC same rules state wide.

    TL;DR: No CCW, SB636 changes nothing for OC for you
    Have a CCW and CC/OC are interchangeable.
    Last edited by deepdiver; 02-15-2015 at 10:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unknownskies View Post
    So I went into bass pro today to go shoot, was talking with the guy and he had told me that now you have to have a CCW to open carry?

    Is this true? Did they change the law to now to open carry you must have a CCW? I know I had saw online about the change that a city cannot ban open carry because it is a state law, but if someone could inform me about that would be great.
    You can legally OC at Bass Pro in Independence without a CCW, because Independence does not have a City Ordinance prohibiting OC. I do business there at least once week, and OC, and had never had any issues.
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
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    See and that is what I was wondering. I went in there, and he had told me that it is now illegal to OC without a CCW. I didn't think that sounded right. I get the whole law that in cities where OC is banned you must have a valid CCW, but I was talking about Independence which last I knew OC was legal without a CCW and when he had told me that I couldn't open carry without a ccw in Independence it didn't make sense to me.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    They're hoping these laws will confuse the common criminal to the point where they just use pointed sticks instead. You know the ones that follow the laws.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    And now write to Bass Pro Shops and ask that their employees not give legal advice. Most store managers will readily agree with this.
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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    And now write to Bass Pro Shops and ask that their employees not give legal advice. Most store managers will readily agree with this.
    ^^^
    Agree..

    A couple of years ago, I dealt with BPS here on checking guns, whether CCwing or OCing.... Loss prevention runs the doors and their policy was all guns had to be checked and triggered locked. Over the course of a week, there were many conversations about BPS being pro 2A when in fact, they weren't. Then it came down; if you have a CCW, no disclosure needed...obviously OC speaks for itself. The guns they wanted to lock are those coming in for repair and/or folks who don't have a CCW and weren't OCing. Many were coming in in range bags for the pistol range/gunsmith.

    Now I walk in with my range bag.......and one on my hip......generally nothing is said.
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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unknownskies View Post
    So I went into bass pro today to go shoot, was talking with the guy and he had told me that now you have to have a CCW to open carry?

    Is this true? Did they change the law to now to open carry you must have a CCW? I know I had saw online about the change that a city cannot ban open carry because it is a state law, but if someone could inform me about that would be great.
    If you're into RIGHTS rather than privileges, maybe you (and the guy at Bass Pro) should learn some more about Amendment 5 / Article 1, Section 23 of the Missouri Constitution.

    I'll throw my challenge out here as I have elsewhere: find me a Missouri city which is willing to take their (IMHO unconstitutional) prohibition on OC to court, and I (or we) will put them to the test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpro2a View Post
    Unknownskies,
    See it difficult it is to get a direct answer to your question? This seems to be the norm in most cases. I honestly don't know why.
    This may be true in NJ, that bastion of liberty..re the 2A, but here in Flyover Country...MO, post # 2 answered the question correctly and directly.

    Based on your post history, your last statement is fitting.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Independence municipal code on lawful use of weapons mentions nothing about OC of a firearm as unlawful ( barring state buildings and parks of course) as such the municipality of independence, is OC legal without a CCW license, the bass pro employee was wrong.

    However without a CCW you have to play checkerboard with your travel plans within the KC and outlying suburbian regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    Independence municipal code on lawful use of weapons mentions nothing about OC of a firearm as unlawful ( barring state buildings and parks of course) as such the municipality of independence, is OC legal without a CCW license, the bass pro employee was wrong.

    However without a CCW you have to play checkerboard with your travel plans within the KC and outlying suburbian regions.
    Various municipalities want you to THINK you have to "play checkerboard with your travel plans".

    As I said previously: "I'll throw my challenge out here as I have elsewhere: find me a Missouri city which is willing to take their (IMHO unconstitutional) prohibition on OC to court, and I (or we) will put them to the test."

    So far all I've heard is crickets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Various municipalities want you to THINK you have to "play checkerboard with your travel plans".

    As I said previously: "I'll throw my challenge out here as I have elsewhere: find me a Missouri city which is willing to take their (IMHO unconstitutional) prohibition on OC to court, and I (or we) will put them to the test."

    So far all I've heard is crickets.


    Unfortunately, their prohibition through the extremely costly court fines is rather effective and why I would rather avoid the potential to be bankrupted fighting it. unless your willing to foot the bill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unknownskies View Post
    So I went into bass pro today to go shoot, was talking with the guy and he had told me that now you have to have a CCW to open carry?

    Is this true? Did they change the law to now to open carry you must have a CCW? I know I had saw online about the change that a city cannot ban open carry because it is a state law, but if someone could inform me about that would be great.
    It technically ONLY applies to those with a CCW permit. The other application is in cities where OC is prohibited, an exemption is given at the state level if one has a CCW permit. The bigger problem is that the police can now use open carry as cause to stop and check you for a CCW permit. Have fun with this one given the reputation of us having to re-train and educate law enforcement officers across this state.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 02-23-2015 at 01:40 AM.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    Unfortunately, their prohibition through the extremely costly court fines is rather effective...
    "Extremely costly court fines"? Do tell us what those extremely costly court fines are, please!


    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    ...why I would rather avoid the potential to be bankrupted fighting it. unless your willing to foot the bill.
    Maybe you can point out where I said YOU had to fight the matter? I simply said "Find me a Missouri city which is willing to take their (IMHO unconstitutional) prohibition on OC to court, and I (or we) will put them to the test." My offer still stands.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    ...unless your (you're) willing to foot the bill.
    I would consider footing the bill for someone who read carefully what I have repeated twice (and engaged in on-point discussion), but for you - no way.
    Last edited by BB62; 02-23-2015 at 11:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    ... The bigger problem is that the police can now use open carry as cause to stop and check you for a CCW permit...
    And such beliefs will continue to function as intimidation as long as you and other Missourians let it be that way.

    If you're not willing to put your butt on the line, then find me a Missouri city which is willing to take their (IMHO unconstitutional) prohibition on OC to court, and I will put them to the test. I'll bet you can't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    "Extremely costly court fines"? Do tell us what those extremely costly court fines are, please!



    Maybe you can point out where I said YOU had to fight the matter? I simply said "Find me a Missouri city which is willing to take their (IMHO unconstitutional) prohibition on OC to court, and I (or we) will put them to the test." My offer still stands.



    I would consider footing the bill for someone who read carefully what I have repeated twice (and engaged in on-point discussion), but for you - no way.
    you have court costs, for one, these can range in price, you have legal counsel fees for two, and finally you have the charges themselves, and their associated cost.

    unfortunately, finding a city that will take it on will probably require you to OC in that city, get stopped by police, fail to produce a CCW license, because you don't have one, be cited, and given a court date. and some officers may even arrest you.

    also I already figured you wouldn't foot the bill for me, I never trusted you to provide that kind of support for your belief, enacted through another. so go ahead and do the OCing in these municipalities without a CCW for us then, and be your own damn guinea pig.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    you have court costs, for one, these can range in price, you have legal counsel fees for two, and finally you have the charges themselves, and their associated cost.

    unfortunately, finding a city that will take it on will probably require you to OC in that city, get stopped by police, fail to produce a CCW license, because you don't have one, be cited, and given a court date. and some officers may even arrest you.

    also I already figured you wouldn't foot the bill for me, I never trusted you to provide that kind of support for your belief, enacted through another. so go ahead and do the OCing in these municipalities without a CCW for us then, and be your own damn guinea pig.
    blah, blah, blah.

  25. #25
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    The Arch Walk is a example of a municipality not desiring to challenge the current wording of Art I, Sec 23. If that language, A5, is nixxed based on the case before, or going to, the MO Supremes then the issue becomes complicated. If the Supremes do not nix the current language I suspect that no municipality will chance having their #1 intimidation tool tossed. But, it will take a cop to get the ball rolling. I have yet to have a cop stop me to check for my endorsement. I do little OCing during winter but I do not subscribe to the "concealed means concealed" mantra. In fact I am OCing cuz the bottom of my holster protrude beyond the bottom of my Carhart jacket.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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