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Thread: One possible problem/issue if "licensed" OC passes

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    One possible problem/issue if "licensed" OC passes

    How will LEO know whether a person OC'ing is in fact licensed?

    The act of OC'ing, absent any other circumstances, would not give LEOs reasonable suspicion to detain you and investigate whether you have a CHL. This has been an issue in other states, where someone OC'ing is illegally detained and asked to ID himself to make sure he has a license, and/or is not a felon prohibited from possessing a firearm. Such detentions are illegal and unconstitutional, but it doesn't seem to stop LEOs from doing it and harassing law-abiding citizens.

    Imagine if you were driving down the road, breaking no laws, and a cop arbitrarily stopped you "just to check and see if you have a valid driver's license." That's an unconstitutional stop.

    I foresee this being an issue if "licensed" OC passes.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Texas1999; 02-16-2015 at 03:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas1999 View Post
    How will LEO know whether a person OC'ing is in fact licensed?

    ...

    Thoughts?
    Strictly speaking, the same situation exists in every federal GFSZ in the nation and in every State GFSZ. If it is legal to carry (OC or CC) in such GFSZs, a permit is generally required and under your theory/concern an office could stop anyone and everyone with a gun to verify they have the required permits. In practice, how often does this happen?

    Obviously, full statutory recognition for our RsKBA without needing any permits at all is the best course and the ultimate goal for most everyone serious about RsKBA, I believe. But I am a proponent of incrementalism in cases where reaching the end goal in a single step is not politically possible.

    Charles
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Strictly speaking, the same situation exists in every federal GFSZ in the nation and in every State GFSZ. If it is legal to carry (OC or CC) in such GFSZs, a permit is generally required and under your theory/concern an office could stop anyone and everyone with a gun to verify they have the required permits. In practice, how often does this happen?

    Obviously, full statutory recognition for our RsKBA without needing any permits at all is the best course and the ultimate goal for most everyone serious about RsKBA, I believe. But I am a proponent of incrementalism in cases where reaching the end goal in a single step is not politically possible.

    Charles
    It would depend on which federal district court, in NC it has been ruled that a open carried firearm is not RAS. US v Deberry, surprising a Il. case it was ruled that a legally carried firearm is not reason for a stop. So in those two districts IMO the answer would be no they cannot. But I doubt little things like court rulings would stop some.

    I am more concerned that the good citizens of Texas will still be able to OC a long gun, and/or a cap and ball revolver. Which brings us right back to the whining of the liberals, because some are just not going to get permits.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 02-16-2015 at 04:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    It would depend on which federal district court, in NC it has been ruled that a open carried firearm is not RAS. US v Deberry, surprising a Il. case it was ruled that a legally carried firearm is not reason for a stop. So in those two districts IMO the answer would be no they cannot. But I doubt little things like court rulings would stop some.
    Would that the SCOTUS would quickly recognize such common sense rulings. Peaceful possession of a gun should not, absent something else, of itself be RAS for any kind of a stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I am more concerned that the good citizens of Texas will still be able to OC a long gun, and/or a cap and ball revolver. Which brings us right back to the whining of the liberals, because some are just not going to get permits.
    True incrementalism is to gain something, however small, without giving up anything you already have. If anything you have is traded to get something different, that is not incrementalism but something different that might be characterized as throwing one segment of the RKBA community under the bus in order to benefit another.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas1999 View Post
    How will LEO know whether a person OC'ing is in fact licensed?
    Thoughts?
    How will the officer know whether a person he sees operating a vehicle on Texas highways is in fact licensed?

    How will the officer know whether a person with the hand of a small child in his in fact the child's parent or guardian?

    How will the officer know whether the person he sees walking down the road is an escaped felon who is by virtue of being an escapee not permitted in public?

    "How do I know you're not [insert favorite crime here]....." is not a reasonable, much less articulable suspicion that a crime has recently been committed, is currently occurring, or is about to occur.

    As a Georgian, the carrying of weapons concealed or open requires a license (same as it does for driving, oddly enough). Being seen driving or being seen carrying a weapon has been determined by the courts as insufficiently suspicious to warrant a detention. Of course some officers were unable to comprehend this so it was written into the law that a person could Not be detained merely to ascertain if he/she possessed a license.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 02-18-2015 at 10:15 PM.

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    There is still a strong activist movement in Texas that would most certainly work to put an end to such practices wherever they spring up, not dissimilar to how they've fought to put an end to similar practices used to oppress lawful long gun OCers.
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas1999 View Post


    Imagine if you were driving down the road, breaking no laws, and a cop arbitrarily stopped you "just to check and see if you have a valid driver's license." That's an unconstitutional stop.

    I foresee this being an issue if "licensed" OC passes.

    Thoughts?
    I believe Delaware V. Prouse covers this issue of stopping someone without PC or much less RAS to see if they have a valid DL. Hope this helps.
    Last edited by OC-Aviator; 02-16-2015 at 07:02 PM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Navarette v California may have completely eviscerated the protections established in Terry.

    To summarize

    A person who refused to give (her) name and was therefor anonymous and unable to be called to give eyewitness testimony, alleged an unprovable happening (run off the road) an an unknown location timeand unprovable and without any physical evidence, called 911 to give a description of a truck, its color, license number, and where it could be found (Southbound on X highway). Officers responded and found a truck matching the description and followed it for 5 minutes without seeing it violate any traffic laws. In spite of this, because the driver of the truck 'could have been drunk' the officers pulled the driver over where they found packaged marijuana in the open bed.0

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas1999 View Post
    ...Imagine if you were driving down the road, breaking no laws, and a cop arbitrarily stopped you "just to check and see if you have a valid driver's license." That's an unconstitutional stop...
    We have a member of this forum who's a cop in your neighbor of Oklahoma (which now being licensed OC is probably the closest thing to what you can expect) who admits he thinks it's just fine to detain and check for chit like driver's licenses, too.

    It starts getting good at post #48: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...per-get-a-life
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    How will the officer know whether a person he sees operating a vehicle on Texas highways is in fact licensed?

    How will the officer know whether a person with the hand of a small child in his in fact the child's parent or guardian?

    How will the officer know whether the person he sees walking down the road is an escaped felon who is by virtue of being an escapee not permitted in public?

    "How do I know you not ....." is not a reasonable, much less articulable suspicion that a crime has recently been committed, is currently occurring, or is about to occur.

    As a Georgian, the carrying of weapons concealed or open requires a license (same as it does for driving, oddly enough). Being seen driving or being seen carrying a weapon has been determined by the courts as insufficiently suspicious to warrant a detention. Of course some officers were unable to comprehend this so it was written into the law that a person could Not be detained merely to ascertain if he/she possessed a license.
    Straight forward and makes the point best IMHO.
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    Regular Member SovereigntyOrDeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas1999 View Post
    How will LEO know whether a person OC'ing is in fact licensed?

    The act of OC'ing, absent any other circumstances, would not give LEOs reasonable suspicion to detain you and investigate whether you have a CHL. This has been an issue in other states, where someone OC'ing is illegally detained and asked to ID himself to make sure he has a license, and/or is not a felon prohibited from possessing a firearm. Such detentions are illegal and unconstitutional, but it doesn't seem to stop LEOs from doing it and harassing law-abiding citizens.

    Imagine if you were driving down the road, breaking no laws, and a cop arbitrarily stopped you "just to check and see if you have a valid driver's license." That's an unconstitutional stop.

    I foresee this being an issue if "licensed" OC passes.

    Thoughts?
    I agree that it will be an issue. Especially if the person OCing "looks suspicious" right? It would be like a cop following you because your car looks suspicious. If he follows you long enough he will find a reason to pull you over.

    Harassment will happen as I have seen numerous times. I can hear it now: " Someone complained that you were brandishing" "Let me see your permit" "I need to run the serial number of your firearm" etc....etc....etc....One complies under duress and they get their way. Or, we resist and pay the price.

    It all boils down to the big picture. We need to find a way to restore our 2nd Amendment Rights as intended by The Founders.

    Constitutional Carry is not an oxymoron.

    Carry On.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Education has been the key to resolve these issues. Working with LEA when and wherever needed, filing FOIA requests and going through the legal system when the cooperation/respect for the laws didn't work.

    IMO the concern for wholesale abuse is greatly overstated.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Education has been the key to resolve these issues. Working with LEA when and wherever needed, filing FOIA requests and going through the legal system when the cooperation/respect for the laws didn't work.

    IMO the concern for wholesale abuse is greatly overstated.
    Wholesale? True, not whole sale. Yet...
    Police disable dash cam after being warned they’re on video...
    anomaly
    http://fox2now.com/2015/02/16/police...eyre-on-video/
    I contend that there is ample evidence that this happens far more often than not...can't prove it, just my opinion, but logging substantiated cases is a daunting task given the focus of such a task.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Were the abuse wholesale then the concern could not be overstated. The abuse is not yet wholesale and the concern is not overstated.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Wholesale? True, not whole sale. Yet...I contend that there is ample evidence that this happens far more often than not...can't prove it, just my opinion, but logging substantiated cases is a daunting task given the focus of such a task.
    Were that the case, then a preponderance of people here would have serious horror stories to tell.

    To be sure, there have been cases of note, but IMO no where near the level you seem to suggest.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Wholesale? True, not whole sale. Yet...I contend that there is ample evidence that this happens far more often than not...can't prove it, just my opinion, but logging substantiated cases is a daunting task given the focus of such a task.
    I should think that among this group we'd have a lot more cases than we do of harassment if there were a significant problem. In my State of Utah, for example, a permit is required to OC a fully loaded gun. Under federal law and the laws of many States, a permit is required to OC into a school zone. Yet instances of OCers being stopped to check for a permit seem to be fairly rare.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

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    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Texas has a whole bunch of attorneys that w/b more than willing to 'teach', as part of a nice financial settlement, any local police departments that ignore any new OC laws that come out of the Legislature. Of course it is incumbent on practical OCers to use proper tools to advance their case if/when rights are violated - audio/video recorders and good understanding of 'new rights' granted by Legislature that 'expand' upon 2A rights so long been trampled on in Texas.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Were that the case, then a preponderance of people here would have serious horror stories to tell.

    To be sure, there have been cases of note, but IMO no where near the level you seem to suggest.
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    I should think that among this group we'd have a lot more cases than we do of harassment if there were a significant problem. In my State of Utah, for example, a permit is required to OC a fully loaded gun. Under federal law and the laws of many States, a permit is required to OC into a school zone. Yet instances of OCers being stopped to check for a permit seem to be fairly rare.

    Charles
    There are, and a few have come here to OCDO, that do not carry a recording device. There are many untold stories of cops "checking papers" because that is what they do, legality be danged. Yes, there have been a few who have intimated/stated out right, that their local LEA does this and will continue to do this.

    Underestimating the occurrences are as bad as overstating the occurrences. Many folks comply, endure the violation - how ever minimal, and don't complain..."why go through the hassle."

    Grape, you know this to be true. I've seen it, given the specific circumstance I've done it to save time. Pure as the wind driven snow I am not, but please do not underestiamte to occurrences, they happen far more often than is desired...or reported.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    There are, and a few have come here to OCDO, that do not carry a recording device. There are many untold stories of cops "checking papers" because that is what they do, legality be danged. Yes, there have been a few who have intimated/stated out right, that their local LEA does this and will continue to do this.

    Underestimating the occurrences are as bad as overstating the occurrences. Many folks comply, endure the violation - how ever minimal, and don't complain..."why go through the hassle."

    Grape, you know this to be true. I've seen it, given the specific circumstance I've done it to save time. Pure as the wind driven snow I am not, but please do not underestiamte to occurrences, they happen far more often than is desired...or reported.
    Agree, more often than desired - that being .0001 or less and I undstand the convenience thing as well.

    It will be up to the good people of Texas to make those calls/decisions as to how fast and complete the transitions is.

    In the Commonwealth of Virginia, I believe the non-consensual LEO stops are approaching the mythical .0001 level when the active level of OC is considered on a state wide daily basis.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Agree, more often than desired - that being .0001 or less and I undstand the convenience thing as well.

    It will be up to the good people of Texas to make those calls/decisions as to how fast and complete the transitions is.

    In the Commonwealth of Virginia, I believe the non-consensual LEO stops are approaching the mythical .0001 level when the active level of OC is considered on a state wide daily basis.
    No arguments from me.

    There are currently 585 users online. 84 members and 501 guests...as of a few minute ago. How many are of the "convenience" crowd, even in VA. I know several just in my circle of friends and they CC only. I've also seen a cop spy a CC'd gun and say nothing to the CCer. Ya never know and .0001 or less needs a cite.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Were the abuse wholesale then the concern could not be overstated. The abuse is not yet wholesale and the concern is not overstated.
    QFFT wow what an excellent way to say what I was going to say.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    No arguments from me.

    There are currently 585 users online. 84 members and 501 guests...as of a few minute ago. How many are of the "convenience" crowd, even in VA. I know several just in my circle of friends and they CC only. I've also seen a cop spy a CC'd gun and say nothing to the CCer. Ya never know and .0001 or less needs a cite.
    The members are much easier to determine where they stand - the guests are not publicly viewable, but I think you might be surprised from whence the originate.

    No cite required for what I believe to be, any more than for your "more often than not" gut feeling.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-17-2015 at 10:36 PM. Reason: fixed it
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I recognize this is a bit of a tangent, but what about the ability of municipalities to bring their own legislation against OC? Is that a concern as well? Or does the state have total preemption on the matter?

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ct214 View Post
    I recognize this is a bit of a tangent, but what about the ability of municipalities to bring their own legislation against OC? Is that a concern as well? Or does the state have total preemption on the matter?
    Yes sir, there is state preemption of local restrictions.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Regular Member Wolfgang1952's Avatar
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    It sure would be nice to beable to travel to my family in TX and have to disarm when I reached the LA and TX state line. LA doesn’t require a permit to OC only to CC.

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