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Thread: OC in vehicle

  1. #1
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    OC in vehicle

    I have carry permit. In my car does the pistol still have to be concealed or is loaded open carry then legal in the Car?


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    If the weapon is loaded in a vehicle, you need a CPL.

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Does not need to be concealed, but you need to have your CPL to have it loaded in the car/bus/motorcycle. Also if you should happen to get pulled over you are NOT required to announce you have a gun. If they ask if you have one, then tell the truth.
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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO and the board.

    You have a "carry permit". Here, in Washington, they are referred to as "CPLs"(concealed pistol license). A CPL is not required to openly carry in Wa. OC is the default method of carry, no permit required. Now we go to where you can and cannot go with a loaded pistol.
    Being in or on(motorcycle) a vehicle means you are concealed. Does not matter if it is in a holster, on your hip, taped to your forehead,you are concealed. You can forgo the CPL and just unload before entering the vehicle and reloading when getting out. But you have a CPL, so just holster it and go on with life.

    On interaction with LEOs. If you are stopped in a vehicle, they already know you have a CPL. When they ran your plate, it was there with all your other info. Hands on the wheel, be safe, and remember.....You are NOT breaking the law, that is why they call us Legally Armed Citizens.
    Hope you stay a while.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Acceptable ways to carry in a vehicle.
    a) You may open carry the firearm, unloaded without a permit as long as its openly visible or duck taped to your forehead.
    b) You may open carry the firearm, loaded WITH a permit.
    c) You may conceal carry the firearm, unloaded WITH a permit.
    d) You may conceal carry the firearm, loaded WITH a permit.

    Loaded is defined as:
    Quote Originally Posted by RCW 9.41.010
    (14) "Loaded" means:
    (a) There is a cartridge in the chamber of the firearm;
    (b) Cartridges are in a clip that is locked in place in the firearm;
    (c) There is a cartridge in the cylinder of the firearm, if the firearm is a revolver;
    (d) There is a cartridge in the tube or magazine that is inserted in the action; or
    (e) There is a ball in the barrel and the firearm is capped or primed if the firearm is a muzzle loader.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 02-17-2015 at 11:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    Acceptable ways to carry in a vehicle.
    a) You may open carry the firearm, unloaded without a permit as long as its openly visible or duck taped to your forehead.
    b) You may open carry the firearm, loaded WITH a permit.
    c) You may conceal carry the firearm, unloaded WITH a permit.
    d) You may conceal carry the firearm, loaded WITH a permit.
    I know we generally don't cover long arm carry, but since slapmonkay used "firearm" instead of "pistol" in his examples, it should be noted that loaded long arms are not allowed in vehicles.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dain Bramage View Post
    I know we generally don't cover long arm carry, but since slapmonkay used "firearm" instead of "pistol" in his examples, it should be noted that loaded long arms are not allowed in vehicles.
    Good catch, I should have used pistol.

    For those that may not know, the rifle/shotgun restriction is coming out of FWP Hunting RCW 77.15.460.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 02-17-2015 at 12:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    Good catch, I should have used pistol.

    For those that may not know, the rifle/shotgun restriction is coming out of FWP Hunting RCW 77.15.460.
    sm, you're a mensch. I only mentioned it because we seemed to be covering ground zero on vehicle carry.

    And yes, game wardens will knick you for leaning a loaded rifle on a tailgate, but the law is applicable to everyone.

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    I want help re I have carry permit but if I am driving or as a passenger does my weapon in the car on my person still have to be concealed from other motorists?


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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang999 View Post
    I want help re I have carry permit but if I am driving or as a passenger does my weapon in the car on my person still have to be concealed from other motorists?


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    No need to complicate this, see the post above

    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    Acceptable ways to carry in a vehicle.
    a) You may open carry the firearm, unloaded without a permit as long as its openly visible or duck taped to your forehead.
    b) You may open carry the firearm, loaded WITH a permit.
    c) You may conceal carry the firearm, unloaded WITH a permit.
    d) You may conceal carry the firearm, loaded WITH a permit.

    that is it, this state does not have printing/whatever strange and complicated rule applies elsewhere

  11. #11
    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    To be perfectly clear, the person required to have a CPL is the person who carries or places a loaded handgun in a vehicle.

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    To further clarify. Regardless of anything else, you still can't carry the firearm in violation of RCW 9.41.270, even if you are in your car. I am on my phone so I can't easily quote it, but you can Google it. It is the one that says you can't display a firearm to intimidate someone, or in a way that warrants alarm by another.

    So can you tape the gun to your forhead? Probably, since that would be hard to use and thus not warrant alarm. But you probably can't mount it in a swivel mount on the dashboard pointing out at other drivers.
    Last edited by arentol; 02-18-2015 at 01:23 AM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Bill45's Avatar
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    Correct me if I am wrong, but, I recall reading that if you have a carry permit and are in a car the gun has to be carried on your person. Not sitting on the seat next to you or placed under your leg.

    Actually taping it to your forhead would be more legal than the gun sitting on the seat next to you.

    If you have no permit then the handgun has to be unloaded and out of sight.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill45 View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but, I recall reading that if you have a carry permit and are in a car the gun has to be carried on your person. Not sitting on the seat next to you or placed under your leg.

    Actually taping it to your forhead would be more legal than the gun sitting on the seat next to you.

    If you have no permit then the handgun has to be unloaded and out of sight.
    OK, Lets's go to the source:

    RCW 9.41.050
    Carrying firearms.


    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol

    and:


    (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person,


    (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there,


    or


    (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
    Having a pistol on the seat next to you would satisfy condition (ii) above, so is perfectly legal as long as you have a permit and are in the vehicle. Note the 'or' between (ii) and (iii). That means that as long as you meet the requirements of one of the three, you are good.
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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  15. #15
    Regular Member Bill45's Avatar
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    Great info.

    Thanks for the clairifications.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    c) You may conceal carry the firearm, unloaded WITH a permit.
    Please cite. I can't seem to find that requirement. (How does a non permit holder get a new gun home if this is the law?)

  17. #17
    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfslicer View Post
    Please cite. I can't seem to find that requirement. (How does a non permit holder get a new gun home if this is the law?)
    He's saying to conceal you must have a permit even if it's unloaded.
    The scenario you gave doesn't fit that.
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  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfslicer View Post
    Please cite. I can't seem to find that requirement. (How does a non permit holder get a new gun home if this is the law?)
    RCW 9.41.050, you may never conceal a pistol while carrying without a CPL, loaded or unloaded (exemptions applicable). If you just bought a new pistol, I assume that your carrying it in a case or other, unloaded. If thats the case, then your not concealing it on your person. There is a specific exemption to RCW 9.41.050 in RCW 9.41.060 which allows for a closed opaque case or wrapper while unloaded.

    If you want to carry the new pistol home without a CPL, in your car, you would have to adhere to the first bullet point I had mentioned.
    a) You may open carry the firearm, unloaded without a permit as long as its openly visible or duck taped to your forehead.


    Quote Originally Posted by RCW 9.41.050
    (1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.
    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.
    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
    (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.
    (3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
    (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.
    (4) Nothing in this section permits the possession of firearms illegal to possess under state or federal law.
    Quote Originally Posted by RCW 9.41.060(9)
    (9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper;
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 02-18-2015 at 06:29 PM.
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    One other point, thanks to I-594, you may not be able to have your gun, loaded or unloaded, in the back of a hatchback with a passenger in the back seat.... Constructive possession would create an illegal transfer???

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Not until they picked up the gun and left the vehicle with it.
    If I had heroin in the back of my hatchback a passenger in the back seat would be prosecuted for possession of heroin if the police felt like arresting them. How is this different?

    I am not talking about how this law should properly be interpreted, I am talking about how it could be abused to make anyone the legal establishment likes into criminals....

    We have allowed the "war on drugs" to twist the definition of "possession" and "intent" beyond all recognition. So now when other laws refer to "possession" and "intent" directly or indirectly, they too can be enforced with the same twisted definition.

    If a cop doesn't like my attitude (and I admit to being the owner of the gun) then:
    I "intended" to leave the gun in the back of the car and I allowed someone to sit closer to it than I was. Being closest to something gives someone constructive possession.... So I "intended" delivery to the person in the back seat, and that person gained "possession" and so an illegal transfer took place.

    If you doubt the passenger could be ruled to have possession.... What if the car was parked, the passenger knew the gun was there, and I got into a fight with him and we both went for the gun at the same time. Who would get it?... Yup, he would, so clearly he had more possession of it than I. A cop can use that kind of reasoning, and won't believe for a second that the passenger didn't know about the gun if it serves his purpose.

    I am sure multiple felons have been nailed in similar circumstances. I will see if I can find a case like this when I get home tonight.
    Last edited by arentol; 02-19-2015 at 11:58 AM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    In your scenario, any passenger that did not have a CPL in a vehicle in which was located a loaded handgun would be in violation of RCW 9.41.050 regardless of if the owner of the handgun was present who has a CPL. If you come to my house to visit, I do not automatically transfer my guns to you. If you ride in my vehicle as a passenger, I do not automatically transfer my guns to you. That's pretty ridiculous. Firearms are a little bit different than heroin because the firearm can have a legal owner/person in possession in the vehicle whereas heroin cannot have a person legal to possess it.
    Incorrect, as 9.41.050 specifically states that a loaded firearm can be carried or placed in a vehicle as long as certain requirements are met, the relevant one here being that the CPL holder is present, or that it is out of sight. That law is well written and is mostly unaffected by changes in constructive possession once the firearm is placed in the vehicle, especially if placed out of sight.

    You are missing my point. I am saying I-594 is a flaming pile of doggy-doo that is so poorly written that depending on how one term is applied it may technically make it impossible to legally own a firearm in the State of Washington.

    9.41.010 defines a transfer as the intended delivery of a firearm to someone else for pretty much any reason other than an actual sale.

    So what happens if I lay a gun down on a table in your home and leave? I intended the transfer and even if you never touch the gun you still have constructive possession so a transfer took place.

    What if I do the same, but I leave it behind on accident, not in purpose? Is that a transfer or not?

    The first example is probably going to be illegal. It meets the requirements of both general and specific intent.

    The second would likely be illegal under general intent only.

    So which is it? If transfers require specific intent then my car situation is not as much of a problem, but if general intent is sufficient then we are all screwed. How do you even tell with a new law? Do we have to wait for a court to decide before we know what we can and can't do?

    Notice I say "not as much of a problem"? There is a reason for that.... Even if specific intent is required you could still do time in the car situation with a jerk of a cop, prosecutor, and judge, and a stupid jury. It isn't at all likely right now, but it is possible. Hell, people do time in NJ for stopping for gas while traveling in a federally protected manner with an unloaded firearm in their trunk during interstate travel.... Who knows how this law will be abused in a few more years if it isn't taken down.

    Also, just for fun, in my "leaving it on your table" scenarios... If I come back 1 minute later to get the gun wouldn't we both have to go to an FFL to have you transfer it back to me? In the second scenario, even though no transfer took place, wouldn't you still have possession and thus giving it back to me would be a transfer?

    Stupid, stupid, stupid, "law".
    Last edited by arentol; 02-19-2015 at 06:32 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    the relevant one here being that the CPL holder is present
    Wrong. You need to read the words that are written. The CPL-holder must be the person who carried or placed the loaded handgun in the vehicle. If a person without a CPL carries or places a loaded handgun in a vehicle in the state of Washington, they have committed a misdemeanor, regardless of the presence of a CPL-holder in the same vehicle. Moreover, if a CPL-holder places a loaded handgun into a vehicle in the state of Washington and then leaves the vehicle with the vehicle locked and with the loaded handgun concealed from view from outside the vehicle, persons without CPLs still inside the vehicle have committed no misdemeanor.

    RCW 9.41.050
    Carrying firearms.

    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
    (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

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