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Thread: The Florida 4th DCA ruled today against the right to carry openly in the Norman case

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    The Florida 4th DCA ruled today against the right to carry openly in the Norman case

    The Florida 4th DCA ruled today against the right to carry openly in the Norman case. We're going to the Florida Supreme Court and we need your support to get there.


    "While the right to carry outside the home has been established by the
    highest court of the land, no decision interpreting the Second Amendment
    can be cited for the proposition that a state must allow for one form of
    carry over another. Because the Legislature has the right to enact laws
    regarding the manner in which arms can be borne, it is likewise permitted
    to forbid the carrying of arms in a particular place or manner which, in its
    collective judgment, is likely to lead to breaches of the peace, see Carlton
    v. State, 58 So. 486, 488-89 (Fla. 1912), provided a reasonable alternative
    manner of carry is provided."


    https://edca.4dca.org/DCADocs/2012/3...5_083006_i.pdf

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    The ruling: what unbelievable BS!

    This sentence (among others): "...the Second Amendment conferred a personal right on citizens to keep and bear arms..." - more BS.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    They just officially recognized the RKBA while mentioning that they can say HOW, but did they even address how it can be REQUIRED to have a license to do so?

    Their argument MIGHT have SOME logic to it, IF they were to require concealment, but correctly ruled that a permit can not be required.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    They just officially recognized the RKBA while mentioning that they can say HOW, but did they even address how it can be REQUIRED to have a license to do so?

    Their argument MIGHT have SOME logic to it, IF they were to require concealment, but correctly ruled that a permit can not be required.
    "In our opinion, section 790.053 does not effectively enjoin responsible, law-abiding citizens from the right to carry a firearm in public for self-defense. Rather, it permits the typical responsible, law-abiding citizen theability to bear arms in public, albeit with constitutionally permissible restrictions, for the lawful purpose of self-defense." (page 24 of the ruling - my bold)

    So having the "ability" to bear arms, as a state-sanctioned privilege, is good enough for the court. The court says there's a RIGHT, then says a privilege suffices.

  5. #5
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    I just read the 21st. century version of Alice in Wonderland.

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Tell me more about this support.

    When?

    Where do I send it?

    What forms of FRN transfer do you handle?

    Will my name go on a list if I donate more than $X? (And what is that $X?) (And is it "per donation" or aggregated?)

    BTW - the decision sucks on many levels.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    As usual, when the court discusses what, if any, level of scrutiny is required they conveniently ignore the text of the Second Amendment itself, which states plain as day that the right shall not be infringed.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    As usual, when the court discusses what, if any, level of scrutiny is required they conveniently ignore the text of the Second Amendment itself, which states plain as day that the right shall not be infringed.
    So I suppose that since you insist in absolutely unrestricted exercise of the 2nd Amendment right you would support the absolutely unrestricted exercise of my 1st Amendment right? (Or do you think there is some reason to support the restriction of my Mayan religious practice of sacrificing still-beatinng human hearts?)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    So I suppose that since you insist in absolutely unrestricted exercise of the 2nd Amendment right you would support the absolutely unrestricted exercise of my 1st Amendment right? (Or do you think there is some reason to support the restriction of my Mayan religious practice of sacrificing still-beatinng human hearts?)

    stay safe.
    uhm, you sacrificing those would require you intrude on the basic rights of others ( ie the right of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness)and as such is not an exercise of the 1st amendment, but a restriction of the rights of others.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    uhm, you sacrificing those would require you intrude on the basic rights of others ( ie the right of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness)and as such is not an exercise of the 1st amendment, but a restriction of the rights of others.
    Hmmm - would that be the case if the heart donor where also a practicing believer of the same religion?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Hmmm - would that be the case if the heart donor where also a practicing believer of the same religion?
    in essence of law.. yes, and no. I guess if they wish to end their life in painfully "Kavorkian" style, that is their choice. although I would believe it would be hard to find sacrificial volunteers who are "of sound mind"

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    in essence of law.. yes, and no. I guess if they wish to end their life in painfully "Kavorkian" style, that is their choice. although I would believe it would be hard to find sacrificial volunteers who are "of sound mind"
    I would think that would depend on who you asked. Suicide bombers believe they are going to a better place and will be rewarded according to their religious instruction.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    They just officially recognized the RKBA while mentioning that they can say HOW, but did they even address how it can be REQUIRED to have a license to do so?

    Their argument MIGHT have SOME logic to it, IF they were to require concealment, but correctly ruled that a permit can not be required.
    Yeah, they want to have their cake and eat it too, all while ignoring the elephant in the room.

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    uhm, you sacrificing those would require you intrude on the basic rights of others ( ie the right of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness)and as such is not an exercise of the 1st amendment, but a restriction of the rights of others.
    I hate to say it but "Gotcha!"

    While ripping out the hearts of folks selected to be sacrificed may be malum per se it seems you are more interested in prosecuting me for a violation of their civil rights. And yet those civil rights violations have only been applied to a limited class of protected persons.

    And to swing things back around to RKBA - I need a little help here. I can't seem to remember the civil rights cases that were brought and won against any State that limits the method of exercising that right (OC, CC, or two/three/five steps) so long as there was not an arbitrary issue of deciding who could or could not get official government permission if there was only one approved method available. I can recall reading briefs where the notion was put forward that there should be absolutely no limitation but they were both outnumbered by all the other briefs focusing on the elimination of arbitrary and caprecious awarding of official permission and roundly and soundly ignored by the courts.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I'd like to swing this thread back to the original post - the one that said
    We're going to the Florida Supreme Court and we need your support to get there.
    How can we support that effort? If it involves sending money, where do we send it and what forms of exchange will be available to do that? Can we designate our donation to be used only for the FSC appeal of the Norman decision?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  16. #16
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    So I suppose that since you insist in absolutely unrestricted exercise of the 2nd Amendment right you would support the absolutely unrestricted exercise of my 1st Amendment right? (Or do you think there is some reason to support the restriction of my Mayan religious practice of sacrificing still-beatinng human hearts?)

    stay safe.
    Specious (look it up) argument. Yelling fire in a crowded movie theater should not be a "unlawful" exercise of our 1A if nobody gets hurt, or who joins in on the yelling.

    "...some states sensibly require that an applicant for a handgun permit establish his competence in handling firearms.
    So, permission (a permit) to exercise a right is OK, and our right(s) are subject to a vote. A bunch of anti-liberty judges is what they are.

    If there is a penalty for the lawful and peaceful exercise of a right then there is no right recognized.

    The lengths that a court will go to justify illogical opinions.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    It sure looks like you are trying toattribute that second quoted segment to me. How about putting some accurate attribution to it, OK?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Specious (look it up) argument. Yelling fire in a crowded movie theater should not be a "unlawful" exercise of our 1A if nobody gets hurt, or who joins in on the yelling.

    So, permission (a permit) to exercise a right is OK, and our right(s) are subject to a vote. A bunch of anti-liberty judges is what they are.

    If there is a penalty for the lawful and peaceful exercise of a right then there is no right recognized.

    The lengths that a court will go to justify illogical opinions.
    Not saying I agree with it, but the thinking goes:

    "If everybody can get permission, there is no foul in requiring permission." (Well, OK, everybody except felons and the basically crazy. We'll discuss those folks' rights later.)

    But tell me, how is this getting us back on track to find out how to support the case's appeal to the FSC?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  19. #19
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    For context.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    So I suppose that since you insist in absolutely unrestricted exercise of the 2nd Amendment right you would support the absolutely unrestricted exercise of my 1st Amendment right? (Or do you think there is some reason to support the restriction of my Mayan religious practice of sacrificing still-beatinng human hearts?)

    stay safe.
    How about you own up to your own remarks, OK? OC4me did not address the 1A in any way shape or form...you did. In fact, I reread the posts before yours, many times just in case and the 1A wasn't mention anywhere, not even once. Thus, rightly or wrongly, your reference to the 1A is a specious argument...or more accurately, a specious accusation of what oc4me would or would not support.

    Mayans? Human sacrifice? Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Not saying I agree with it, but the thinking goes:

    "If everybody can get permission, there is no foul in requiring permission." (Well, OK, everybody except felons and the basically crazy. We'll discuss those folks' rights later.)

    But tell me, how is this getting us back on track to find out how to support the case's appeal to the FSC?

    stay safe.
    Yeah, I read that too...you have no right to keep and bear arms unless we grant you a permission slip so that you will not get pinched for exercising a right. Swerving off the road to do a drive by on OC4me was the start of the swerve. But, you did swerve back on to the road. I'll give you props for that. I'll recede now so as not to swerve us off the other side of the road.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I'd like to swing this thread back to the original post - the one that said

    How can we support that effort? If it involves sending money, where do we send it and what forms of exchange will be available to do that? Can we designate our donation to be used only for the FSC appeal of the Norman decision?

    stay safe.
    You can Join or donate at https://www.FloridaCarry.org

    If you just want to fund the lawsuit, go to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/websc...=PREQH8LCA9ML8

  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I'd like to swing this thread back to the original post - the one that said

    How can we support that effort? If it involves sending money, where do we send it and what forms of exchange will be available to do that? Can we designate our donation to be used only for the FSC appeal of the Norman decision?

    stay safe.
    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    You can Join or donate at https://www.FloridaCarry.org

    If you just want to fund the lawsuit, go to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/websc...=PREQH8LCA9ML8
    My understanding is that such donations are given and received w/o limiting conditions. At least that is what my legal beagle tells me.

    Those that give do so in good faith with the hope/trust that funds will first be used for the advertised primary purpose.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    The Florida 4th DCA ruled today against the right to carry openly in the Norm...

    We have separate accounting for the legal fund. But, most people just make general donations.
    Last edited by StogieC; 02-19-2015 at 02:20 PM.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    We have separate accounting for the legal fund. But, most people just make general donations.
    Donation sent with notation that it is specifically for the Norman appeal.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    For context.How about you own up to your own remarks, OK? OC4me did not address the 1A in any way shape or form...you did. In fact, I reread the posts before yours, many times just in case and the 1A wasn't mention anywhere, not even once. Thus, rightly or wrongly, your reference to the 1A is a specious argument...or more accurately, a specious accusation of what oc4me would or would not support.

    Mayans? Human sacrifice? Religion?

    ....
    I keep reading that the right in the 2nd Amendment is an absolute right that may not be infringed in any manner. Just checking to see if the absoluteness of rights extends to those mentioned elsewhere - the 1st Amendment was handy and convenient.

    You got something against Mayans? Bet you also have something against Santariaists and worshipers of Kali, to name just two. The point being that the argument of the 2A right being absolute falls on its face if those other enumerated rights are not absolute as well.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  25. #25
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I hate to say it but "Gotcha!"

    While ripping out the hearts of folks selected to be sacrificed may be malum per se it seems you are more interested in prosecuting me for a violation of their civil rights. And yet those civil rights violations have only been applied to a limited class of protected persons.
    Limited to everyone? Pretty sure it's illegal to kill anyone with very limited and generally highly scrutinized exceptions.

    I'm also fairly positive that OC4Me does not advocate a right to be negligent and/malicious in the use of firearms resulting in the injury or death of another.

    Thusly your argument is a strawman and not worth the time of day. But I'll play your little game.

    It's widely accepted that your rights end where the rights of others begins. So regardless of how restricted or otherwise your rights to firearms may be, they stop short of you using it to injure or kill another in cold blood.

    Further, your argument that certain rights are treated in certain ways has no bearing on a philosophical discussion. The discussion isn't what is, but what should be. Your inability to differentiate between is and should demonstrates to me that you are incapable of thinking for yourself.

    So even if it was only illegal to kill certain folk, it still would have no bearing on this discussion. At least not until OC4Me's stance onthat subject was brought to light. Which was not the case, as you jumped the gun.

    There was no "gotcha."

    Finally someone mentioned the tired old cliche that it's illegal to shout fire in a theater. This is not true, it is only illegal to incite behavior likely to cause damage or injury.

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