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Thread: State info on open carry site

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    State info on open carry site

    Under the information state by state, the advice given is that we are an open carry state but we cannot open carry in a vehicle. Is this information outdated? Is this information given as an advice to protect us from bad cops that stop us or is this information/ advice given after all the trouble MKEGAL went through on that fateful day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Under the information state by state, the advice given is that we are an open carry state but we cannot open carry in a vehicle. Is this information outdated? Is this information given as an advice to protect us from bad cops that stop us or is this information/ advice given after all the trouble MKEGAL went through on that fateful day.
    It's wrong. I've tried in vain to get it changed.

    When concealed carry became legal in Wisconsin several other laws changed as well. The state DOJ put on training seminars for law enforcement regarding carry laws. I was at 2 of them. No less than the Attorney General and the Assistant Attorney General stated that non-licensed open carry in a vehicle is legal, and went through some scenarios as to what they would consider open carry in a vehicle.

    This is not to say that some cowboy with a badge isn't going to going to try and nail you with CCW when your pistol was clearly visible on the dash. I'm only saying what the AG's office said what the law is. If you have a CCL you don't even have to worry about it. Eventually I hope we get constitutional carry and all these ridiculous rules and laws are tossed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    It's wrong. I've tried in vain to get it changed.

    When concealed carry became legal in Wisconsin several other laws changed as well. The state DOJ put on training seminars for law enforcement regarding carry laws. I was at 2 of them. No less than the Attorney General and the Assistant Attorney General stated that non-licensed open carry in a vehicle is legal, and went through some scenarios as to what they would consider open carry in a vehicle.

    This is not to say that some cowboy with a badge isn't going to going to try and nail you with CCW when your pistol was clearly visible on the dash. I'm only saying what the AG's office said what the law is. If you have a CCL you don't even have to worry about it. Eventually I hope we get constitutional carry and all these ridiculous rules and laws are tossed.
    I thought so. Thanks PKBITES. Now this reminds me of another thing. I remember reading the WI DOJ letter I got with my CCL a while back. In it they stated that we had to disclose to a LEO if we are armed, but in act 35 it states we only disclose when asked by the LEO. Since you are in law enforcement, what is your advice?

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    If you still have the letter could you post the actual wording.

    I don't think it says you shall disclose I thinks its more hints that you should.

    But I am a couple thousand miles away from my letter.

    That is even if I kept it.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 02-20-2015 at 02:32 PM.
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    You don't have to inform unless asked. Moot point. On an F.I. or traffic stop I always ask, and I assume everyones armed anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    You don't have to inform unless asked. Moot point. On an F.I. or traffic stop I always ask, and I assume everyones armed anyway.
    That's a good rule to follow. Always ask or assume the person is armed.

    Firearms, I'll search for the letter that came with my CCL. I know with a degree of certainty that one of the things it stated was 'always let the officer know you are armed.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    That's a good rule to follow. Always ask or assume the person is armed.

    Firearms, I'll search for the letter that came with my CCL. I know with a degree of certainty that one of the things it stated was 'always let the officer know you are armed.'
    It might say that but does it say it was a matter of law. Should or shall are two different things
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 02-20-2015 at 05:59 PM.
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    For the basics of carrying a firearm you can use this link or from the sticky on WI subforum page www.tinyurl.com/OpenCarry-WI
    Last edited by Motofixxer; 02-20-2015 at 09:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    If you still have the letter could you post the actual wording.

    I don't think it says you shall disclose I thinks its more hints that you should.

    But I am a couple thousand miles away from my letter.

    That is even if I kept it.
    Still looking for the letter. I am pretty sure they do say that you need to/advice you to disclose anyway to avoid problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    345.23  Officer's action after arrest without a warrant.
    If a person is arrested without a warrant for the violation of a traffic regulation, the arresting officer shall issue a citation under s. 345.11, and in addition:
    (1) May release the person; or
    (2) Shall release the person when he or she:
    (a) Makes a deposit under s. 345.26; or
    (c) Deposits the person's valid Wisconsin operator's license with the officer. ...
    (d) Presents a guaranteed arrest bond certificate under s. 345.61.
    (3) Shall, if the alleged violator is not released under sub. (1) or (2), bring him or her without unreasonable delay before a judge or, ...
    (4) Shall, if the alleged violator is released under sub. (1) or (2), ...

    175.60(2g) Carrying a concealed weapon; possession and display of license document or authorization.
    (a) A licensee or an out-of-state licensee may carry a concealed weapon anywhere in this state except as provided under subs. (15m) and (16) and ss. 943.13 (1m) (c) and 948.605 (2) (b) 1r.
    [ ... ]
    (c) ... [A] licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display his or her license document and photographic identification card ... to a law enforcement officer upon the request of the law enforcement officer while the law enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and with lawful authority.

    What is your point of these to cites?

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    How Much Change?

    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    It's wrong. I've tried in vain to get it changed.

    When concealed carry became legal in Wisconsin several other laws changed as well. The state DOJ put on training seminars for law enforcement regarding carry laws. I was at 2 of them. No less than the Attorney General and the Assistant Attorney General stated that non-licensed open carry in a vehicle is legal, and went through some scenarios as to what they would consider open carry in a vehicle.

    This is not to say that some cowboy with a badge isn't going to going to try and nail you with CCW when your pistol was clearly visible on the dash. I'm only saying what the AG's office said what the law is. If you have a CCL you don't even have to worry about it. Eventually I hope we get constitutional carry and all these ridiculous rules and laws are tossed.
    Could you point out the statute on this topic that changed? The version I have still shows the prohibition. As far as I know, the opinion of the AG is useful but isn't determinative and the case law still stands. What we may agree is open carry may not fly in court. Please correct if I am in error.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    Could you point out the statute on this topic that changed? The version I have still shows the prohibition.

    I'm not sure if you'll be able to link to THIS or this as it is from WILENET which is a restricted site. Both cites are directly from the Wisconsin Department of Justice.

    But they are FAQ's regarding the changes in weapons laws that went into effect in late 2011.

    25.Can a citizen transport a concealed, loaded, unsheathed, handgun in his her vehicle?
    Yes. A person with a CCW license can carry a concealed weapon, including a handgun,
    in their car. Under the new law, even a person without a CCW license can carry a handgun or load a handgun in hi
    s/her vehicle, so long as the weapon is not concealed.

    However long guns (rifles/shotguns) still must be unloaded and encased while in a
    vehicle, whether the person is a CCW license holder or not.
    167.32(2)(b) and (c).


    If I do not have a CCW license how do I transport weapons in a vehicle?
    A.Handguns

    The law now allows a person who can legally possess a handgun to the following without a CCW permit:

    *Place, possess, or transport a handgun in a vehicle without being unloaded or encased. Wis Stats 167.31(2)(b)
    *Load a handgun in a vehicle. Wis Stats 167.31(2)(C)

    IMPORTANT NOTE: Persons who do not have a CCW license may still not carry weapons concealed. In a vehicle this means that the firearm cannot be hidden or concealed and within reach.



    These are directly from the DOJ. This, ontop of what the AG said is pretty clear that open carry in a vehicle is legal in Wisconsin.

    The OCDO Wisconsin info is doubly wrong, anyway. It only says one cannot open carry in a vehicle. A person with a CCL most certainly can OC in a vehicle, I'm sure we all agree with that, and as I've shown here even a person without a CCL can OC in a vehicle.

    The Wisconsin info needs to be changed and Wisconsin should be listed as a Gold Star open carry state!
    Last edited by pkbites; 02-23-2015 at 08:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    It's wrong. I've tried in vain to get it changed...
    Same with the Nevada page. It is rife with errors and all notices to mods and threads on the subject go unanswered. Makes you wonder...
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    The legislature enacted Act 35 in 2011 but did not repeal 941.23

    No, but it did amend it. And that ruling pertained to a weapon being concealed from view from the immediate area outside, not open carry of a weapon where it is immediately observable. The other point is, at that time having a loaded weapon in a vehicle was illegal whether it was concealed or not!

    What legal precedent can you point to of someone being convicted of violating a law that isn't the law anymore, because of a ruling about the law the way it was but isn't anymore?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    To "go armed" does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant's person or within reach; 2) the defendant is aware of the weapon's presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden. State v. Keith, 175 Wis. 2d 75, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993).

    A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this section. State v. Walls, 190 Wis. 2d 65, 526 N.W.2d 765 (Ct. App. 1994).

    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat...tes/941/III/23

    There are three independent and co-equal branches of government, the executive branch, the legislative branch and the judicial branch, and one cannot undo the acts of another. The legislature enacted Chapter 941 of the state statutes in 1977 and the executive administration enforced it, particularly against Keith and Walls. The judiciary interpreted the statute against Keith and Walls and wrote opinion as precedence. The legislature enacted Act 35 in 2011 but did not repeal 941.23 the subject of Keith and Walls (that would have mooted the previous opinion precedence). Until until Keith/Walls are overturned on appeal, they are case law.
    Now may be that's why the mods have not changed the info for WI. OC in a vehicle is dependent on weather the police see it right away or not. You may think it is un concealed but the other party may not see it that way. MKEGAL's incident comes to mind. She went through hell for it. Even Nick Clark of WI Carry recommended that if we OC without a license the gun should be on the dash. However Overzealous prosecutors want to take away our rights to RKBA and under supposed proprietorial discretion will refuse to recognize OC without a CCL. If this issue is resolved by the state then the mods may feel comfortable in changing the info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    It's wrong. I've tried in vain to get it changed.

    When concealed carry became legal in Wisconsin several other laws changed as well. The state DOJ put on training seminars for law enforcement regarding carry laws. I was at 2 of them. No less than the Attorney General and the Assistant Attorney General stated that non-licensed open carry in a vehicle is legal, and went through some scenarios as to what they would consider open carry in a vehicle.

    This is not to say that some cowboy with a badge isn't going to going to try and nail you with CCW when your pistol was clearly visible on the dash. I'm only saying what the AG's office said what the law is. If you have a CCL you don't even have to worry about it. Eventually I hope we get constitutional carry and all these ridiculous rules and laws are tossed.

    The relevant change was small...it added "or handgun." This change does not solve the OC problem to the extent that case law defines OC and I didn't see anything in the statute that overruled the various court cases. As you point you, a person with a CWL (cheesehead or OOS) isn't impacted. A non-CWL holder could still be nailed depending upon the circumstances. A good reason to get a CWL even if one dislikes the concept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    The relevant change was small...it added "or handgun." This change does not solve the OC problem to the extent that case law defines OC and I didn't see anything in the statute that overruled the various court cases. As you point you, a person with a CWL (cheesehead or OOS) isn't impacted. A non-CWL holder could still be nailed depending upon the circumstances. A good reason to get a CWL even if one dislikes the concept.
    How can a court case take precedent over a law that's been changed? The law no longer says what it said when the ruling was made. Case law only affect those laws while they are actually law. The law has been changed, that ruling is moot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    More evidence that legal advice/instruction from a cop is fraught.
    It's not legal advice. I quoted from both the DOJ and AG. Explain to me how a prosecutor could successfully convict someone when there are official announcements/publications from both entities that OC in a vehicle is legal.

    The only question of concern should be what is OC and what is concealed in a vehicle.

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    Firearms

    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    If you still have the letter could you post the actual wording.

    I don't think it says you shall disclose I thinks its more hints that you should.

    But I am a couple thousand miles away from my letter.

    That is even if I kept it.
    I found the letter. It comes with your permit titled: Concealed weapons licence information:Law Enforcement Contact:6) Immediately and calmly tell the officer that you have a CCL and are carrying a weapon.

    It does not state that If the officer asks then... The way I see it is that we are automatically need to let the officer know. I assume they don't want problems.
    Last edited by Law abider; 03-08-2015 at 08:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    I found the letter. It comes with your permit titled: Concealed weapons licence information:Law Enforcement Contact:6) Immediately and calmly tell the officer that you have a CCL and are carrying a weapon.

    It does not state that If the officer asks then... The way I see it is that we are automatically need to let the officer know. I assume they don't want problems.

    It is only a recommendation. There is nothing in the law itself that requires you to inform unless you are asked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    It is only a recommendation. There is nothing in the law itself that requires you to inform unless you are asked.
    Would you recommend it too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Would you recommend it too?
    My first recommendation is to not do anything that would invite authorities to make contact with you in the first place. "Flying under the radar" really isn't that hard.

    If it were me and contact was made, I would only advise I was armed if there was a chance they'd find out anyway. Like, say, if I had to reach back for my wallet and doing so would have a chance to expose a concealed weapon. Otherwise I wouldn't. But that's just me.

    Like I posted before, I always ask even though I assume they are armed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    My first recommendation is to not do anything that would invite authorities to make contact with you in the first place. "Flying under the radar" really isn't that hard.

    If it were me and contact was made, I would only advise I was armed if there was a chance they'd find out anyway. Like, say, if I had to reach back for my wallet and doing so would have a chance to expose a concealed weapon. Otherwise I wouldn't. But that's just me.

    Like I posted before, I always ask even though I assume they are armed.
    I'll take the advice. You are in law enforcement and know how other leos think and are trained. My admission to or not to will depend on the situation, as to weather I am asked to step out or not. My gun is opposite of wallet, so they will not see it if I am not to step out. Good advice!

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    Different Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    How can a court case take precedent over a law that's been changed? The law no longer says what it said when the ruling was made. Case law only affect those laws while they are actually law. The law has been changed, that ruling is moot.
    How? To the extent that the decision deals with an aspect of carry that the law did not address. The change I mentioned added handguns as an exemption to the general rule about carrying firearms in vehicles. However, it did not change what constitutes "concealed carry" in such situations. While a non-licensed individual may carry a loaded, uncased, within reach handgun in a vehicle, it cannot be "concealed." As the relevant cases show, what appears to be open carry can be found to be "concealed." That is why I suggested a CWL or OOSL as a safeguard against a shortsighted LEO or a weapon that slides into a dark recess. Otherwise I would recommend securely affixing your handgun to the dash with bright, flashing neon lights that say "Handgun Here!" Is there anything in the statutes that overruled how the prior decisions defined "concealed"?
    Last edited by apjonas; 04-26-2015 at 09:13 PM. Reason: add info

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