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Thread: Florida Judge flips S. Ct. logic, holds concealed carry law allows open carry ban

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    Florida Judge flips S. Ct. logic, holds concealed carry law allows open carry ban

    http://www.guns.com/2015/02/19/flori...open-carry-ban

    Comment from OpenCarry.org's co-founder Mike Stollenwerk: "Kind of a curious judicial result (holding that banning open carry is not protected by the Second Amendment) considering that the Supreme Court reasoned in the landmark Heller decision that open carry was the protected right, and that concealed carry bans were presumptively lawful."

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Who wudda thunk it.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Am I wrong in that obiter dicta is not binding? Other obiter dicta in other courts say we have no right at all so isn't the Norman kourt free to do what they want? The Fl Supreme Kourt in 1941 said that requiring a license at all was unconstitutional, at least for white people. They ignore that too and that case was from this state on the carry issue.

    No, it's not strange at all and I and others predicted this result EXACTLY. I'm grateful for Fl carry and as long as it doesn't take away from legislative efforts I'm all for it, to expose the illegitimacy of our rulers. It's just extremely frustrating that we'll be waiting so long (another two years at least) only to be disappointed again. We have a pro OC governor. And even if you have an NRA "A" rated GOP governor it is no guarantee at all they'll let OC become law. No, the focus needs to be on licensed OC in Tallahassee, ASAP.
    Last edited by 77zach; 02-23-2015 at 07:40 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    By the way, the guy who wrote the opinion in the Norman decision was also the secretary of education in Idiocracy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKQxI27GjcI

    http://www.4dca.org/judges/Klingensmith.shtml

    How appropriate!
    Last edited by 77zach; 02-23-2015 at 07:49 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  5. #5

    Unhappy Taken down by a tight t-shirt?

    I might have read the OP's original article from guns site. However somewhere around the lower end of the article it states something about some clown taking a video of Norman walking around with a tight shirt which basically "printed" him.
    Because his shirt wasn't baggy enough to "conceal" his weapon he was arrested and possibly the tool anti-gun freak gave the video to the police.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonygreene113 View Post
    I might have read the OP's original article from guns site. However somewhere around the lower end of the article it states something about some clown taking a video of Norman walking around with a tight shirt which basically "printed" him.
    Because his shirt wasn't baggy enough to "conceal" his weapon he was arrested and possibly the tool anti-gun freak gave the video to the police.
    Printing was legislated from the bench, why not everything else...
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    The case is now on appeal to the Florida Supreme Court and all Jurisdiction Briefs have been filed. Next the court will decide if it will review the case.
    Supreme Court Filings:

    Date Docketed
    Description
    Date Due
    Filed By
    Notes
    04/13/2015 Jurisdiction Initial Brief PT Dale Lee Norman BY: PT Eric J. Friday 797901
    05/01/2015 State's Jurisdiction Answer Brief 05/08/2015 RS State Of Florida BY: RS Consiglia Terenzio 656879

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    The case is now on appeal to the Florida Supreme Court and all Jurisdiction Briefs have been filed. Next the court will decide if it will review the case.
    Supreme Court Filings:

    Date Docketed
    Description
    Date Due
    Filed By
    Notes
    04/13/2015 Jurisdiction Initial Brief PT Dale Lee Norman BY: PT Eric J. Friday 797901
    05/01/2015 State's Jurisdiction Answer Brief 05/08/2015 RS State Of Florida BY: RS Consiglia Terenzio 656879
    While there is only a 1% chance this ends in open carry as a right, I'd say there is a 90% we get a "right" to a license to carry a concealed weapon..yawn. However, if Florida keeps its present trajectory this will be useful as the state will eventually try to get rid of the "shall issue" system with a may issue system but they won't able to. As far as I can tell, people thought this could end in OC because historically, a license is a privilege to do something illegal, and the fundamental right cannot be a crime. This is true, but as Eugene Volokh has said, the 2nd amendment is a "second class" right. Just as you have a right to build an addition on your house or get a new roof, you need to get a building permit before you do so. It's ok to treat the right to bear arms as a pseudo right if the infringements are "reasonable" for "safety".

    This is what you get when you vote unwisely vote. They crap on your rights and install "judges" who agree with it.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    The case is now on appeal to the Florida Supreme Court and all Jurisdiction Briefs have been filed. Next the court will decide if it will review the case.
    Supreme Court Filings:

    Date Docketed
    Description
    Date Due
    Filed By
    Notes
    04/13/2015 Jurisdiction Initial Brief PT Dale Lee Norman BY: PT Eric J. Friday 797901
    05/01/2015 State's Jurisdiction Answer Brief 05/08/2015 RS State Of Florida BY: RS Consiglia Terenzio 656879
    Do we know what the timetable is for the FL Supremes' decision on taking the case or not?

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by press1280 View Post
    Do we know what the timetable is for the FL Supremes' decision on taking the case or not?
    I can't find anything that gives a timetable. Part of the merit briefing will be mooted once the governor signs SB 290 but I imagine they'll still be interested in the conflict between the 3rd and 4th DCA and take it up. If what the 4th said is true about Crane no longer being good in light of Heller and McDonald they may not though; only a coolaide drinker would think we'll get OC out of this. The ridiculousness of the last decision should get rid of any doubt about that.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    I can't find anything that gives a timetable. Part of the merit briefing will be mooted once the governor signs SB 290 but I imagine they'll still be interested in the conflict between the 3rd and 4th DCA and take it up. If what the 4th said is true about Crane no longer being good in light of Heller and McDonald they may not though; only a coolaide drinker would think we'll get OC out of this. The ridiculousness of the last decision should get rid of any doubt about that.
    How would SB 290 partially moot this case?

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by press1280 View Post
    How would SB 290 partially moot this case?
    It does make some of the initial brief on merits inaccurate as it relates to the OC question/rights question. For Norman the man, it doesn't matter because they have to rule on what the law was when he broke the "law".

    Right now concealed carry is a crime and having a CWFL is an affirmative defense, see notalawyer's discussion in the thread "2016 licensed OC bill". Once the governor signs SB 290, concealed carry will not be a crime but an element of carrying a concealed weapon without a license.

    https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bil...llText/er/HTML

    But again this just might affect the initial brief. However, part of the strength of Norman's argument was that our right to bear arms was a CRIME by the letter of the law. 790.01 and 790.053 made concealed and open carry crimes respectively, by the letter of the law. Now, concealed carry is just a crime if you don't have the license. A distinction without a difference in real life as we must still "undergo a licensing procedure" to regain the right.

    Our side thinks this is a good case for OC because we believe that a license requirement does not respect the right. We are correct. As far as I can tell though, nothing requires the FL SC to rule accordingly and we know that a majority will not agree with us philosophically. So in that respect, SB 290 doesn't really alter the conclusion.
    Last edited by 77zach; 05-14-2015 at 03:42 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Florida Judge flips S. Ct. logic, holds concealed carry law allows open carry...

    Zach and Press...,

    All matters of fact and law relevant to the case are as they were on the date of the alleged offense. Mooting a case due to a change in law is a civil procedure, Norman is a criminal case..
    Last edited by StogieC; 05-23-2015 at 09:10 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Florida Judge flips S. Ct. logic, holds concealed carry law allows open carry...

    In the Mackey case we got a bad decision, this gave us the juice we needed in the legislature to change the law.

    Even if we loose Norman, we ain't done by a mile.
    Last edited by StogieC; 05-23-2015 at 09:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    Zach and Press...,

    All matters of fact and law relevant to the case are as they were on the date of the alleged offense. Mooting a case due to a change in law is a civil procedure, Norman is a criminal case..
    Correct. Does anyone know how long the Fl Supremes take to decide whether to grant review? I've been digging and can't find anything. I don't know if they do a "conference" like SCOTUS where they decide to take cases or not. It would be nice if they don't simply sit on it for months only to deny review.

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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    The FL Supreme Court will usually decide on taking jurisdiction within 90 days and usually issue decisions on completed (submitted) cases within 4 to 5 months... But! On some cases, especially when ideologies collide, they take considerably longer to fight it out behind closed doors.

    I wouldn't try to guess.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post

    Even if we loose Norman, we ain't done by a mile.
    I think some good will come of it if they hear it; AG already concedes there is a right, so then we can get 'super' shall issue lol. Just not OC. Maybe if you hit over and over and over that banning OC by law abiding citizens can't fly because the "ignorance is bliss argument" ( the state's argument, essentially) is not regulating the manner of bearing arms but infringing on the right, you could squeeze it out, doubt it though.

    Maybe Texas going OC will give some juice to you in the legislature.
    Last edited by 77zach; 05-23-2015 at 11:10 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    i think some good will come of it if they hear it; ag already concedes there is a right, so then we can get 'super' shall issue lol. Just not oc. Maybe if you hit over and over and over that banning oc by law abiding citizens because the "ignorance is bliss argument" ( the state's argument, essentially) is not regulating the manner of bearing arms but infringing on the right, you could squeeze it out, doubt it though.

    Maybe texas going oc will give some juice to you in the legislature.
    qft

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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    The FL Supreme Court will usually decide on taking jurisdiction within 90 days and usually issue decisions on completed (submitted) cases within 4 to 5 months... But! On some cases, especially when ideologies collide, they take considerably longer to fight it out behind closed doors.

    I wouldn't try to guess.
    Still no action by the FL Supremes. I looked at several other cases sitting on their docket and some have been sitting close to a year. This could take a Looong time........

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by press1280 View Post
    Still no action by the FL Supremes. I looked at several other cases sitting on their docket and some have been sitting close to a year. This could take a Looong time........
    They spend their time fiddling away with death penalty appeals. If they take it they also have to figure out how to say a privilege is a right while still seeming legit. When Norman loses, I will be surprised if there are not 4 opinions written. Some will say there is no right at all, others there is a right but it can be banned, and others there is a right subject to "reasonable" regulations (making it a privilege), and then maybe a little disagreement as to what is reasonable. The FL constitution allows anything to be "reasonable" with enough torture.
    Last edited by 77zach; 06-21-2015 at 06:52 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    They spend their time fiddling away with death penalty appeals. If they take it they also have to figure out how to say a privilege is a right while still seeming legit. When Norman loses, I will be surprised if there are not 4 opinions written. Some will say there is no right at all, others there is a right but it can be banned, and others there is a right subject to "reasonable" regulations (making it a privilege), and then maybe a little disagreement as to what is reasonable. The FL constitution allows anything to be "reasonable" with enough torture.
    If they want this to stay away from causing a split, they'll rule for Norman using only the FL constitution, that way they can punt on the 2A question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by press1280 View Post
    If they want this to stay away from causing a split, they'll rule for Norman using only the FL constitution, that way they can punt on the 2A question.
    The Florida Supreme Court cannot cause a 'split' (suggesting the US Supreme Court become involved). Their rules apply only to the state of Florida.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 06-22-2015 at 01:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    The Florida Supreme Court cannot cause a 'split' (suggesting the US Supreme Court become involved). Their rules apply only to the state of Florida.
    If they make a ruling based on the 2A, then yes they can cause a split:

    Rule 10. Considerations Governing Review on Writ of Certiorari








    Review on a writ of certiorari is not a matter of right, but of judicial discretion. A petition for a writ of certiorari will be granted only for compelling reasons. The following, although neither controlling nor fully measuring the Court's discretion, indicate the character of the reasons the Court considers:
    •(a) a United States court of appeals has entered a decision in conflict with the decision of another United States court of appeals on the same important matter; has decided an important federal question in a way that conflicts with a decision by a state court of last resort; or has so far departed from the accepted and usual course of judicial proceedings, or sanctioned such a departure by a lower court, as to call for an exercise of this Court's supervisory power;
    •(b) a state court of last resort has decided an important federal question in a way that conflicts with the decision of another state court of last resort or of a United States court of appeals;
    •(c) a state court or a United States court of appeals has decided an important question of federal law that has not been, but should be, settled by this Court, or has decided an important federal question in a way that conflicts with relevant decisions of this Court.

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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Florida Judge flips S. Ct. logic, holds concealed carry law allows open carry...

    In Florida, the DCAs are the state courts of last resort. However, the FL Supreme Court has discretionary jurisdiction to review decisions of the DCAs. Technically, the 4th DCA Norman decision could have been appealed directly to the U.S. Supreme Court rather than the Florida Supremes. Appeals from the DCA directly to the U.S. Supreme Court are very rare, but they do happen.
    Last edited by StogieC; 06-22-2015 at 06:14 PM.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    In Florida, the DCAs are the state courts of last resort. However, the FL Supreme Court has discretionary jurisdiction to review decisions of the DCAs. Technically, the 4th DCA Norman decision could have been appealed directly to the U.S. Supreme Court rather than the Florida Supremes. Appeals from the DCA directly to the U.S. Supreme Court are very rare, but they do happen.
    If you think SCOTUS, will ever hear this case much less rule in your favor.... I admire your determination.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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