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Question about under 21 open carry.

rick12pats

Newbie
Joined
Feb 23, 2015
Messages
2
Location
Washington NC
Hi I am new here to the forum and am doing some research. First off I am 51 and have had my CHP for many years now. My research and inquiries are for my now 19 year old step son. He is very familiar with firearms as he owns his own shot gun and rifle and hunts regularly. We also frequently go to a range and shoot my handguns. From my understanding he is allowed to possess a handgun at 18 in North Carolina but cannot purchase from an FFL dealer but rather thru private sale or gifted to him provided he obtains a PPP from the county sheriff. With traveling thru out the state and things of that nature 2 here I would always be carrying myself I am not opposed to him having a gun for protection. I would however insist he knows how when and where he could open carry. I suppose the county sheriff would be a good resource. My biggest concern is open carry in his truck. Being North Carolina and boys with their trucks his is a big red Chevy Silverado with the noise making straight pipes and heavily tinted windows. Would the tinted windows be an issue as far as visibility for a LEO and cause him problems? He does attract a lot of attention with his truck and has been pulled over several times in the past for various reasons. Thanks for any advice or insight.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Hi I am new here to the forum and am doing some research. First off I am 51 and have had my CHP for many years now. My research and inquiries are for my now 19 year old step son. He is very familiar with firearms as he owns his own shot gun and rifle and hunts regularly. We also frequently go to a range and shoot my handguns. From my understanding he is allowed to possess a handgun at 18 in North Carolina but cannot purchase from an FFL dealer but rather thru private sale or gifted to him provided he obtains a PPP from the county sheriff. With traveling thru out the state and things of that nature 2 here I would always be carrying myself I am not opposed to him having a gun for protection. I would however insist he knows how when and where he could open carry. I suppose the county sheriff would be a good resource. My biggest concern is open carry in his truck. Being North Carolina and boys with their trucks his is a big red Chevy Silverado with the noise making straight pipes and heavily tinted windows. Would the tinted windows be an issue as far as visibility for a LEO and cause him problems? He does attract a lot of attention with his truck and has been pulled over several times in the past for various reasons. Thanks for any advice or insight.

Not all LEO's know the law, or they give you what they wish the law to be. Your best source is to look up the laws for yourself. The tinted windows on his truck are a traffic/equipment issue, and AFAIK would have nothing to do with open carry of a handgun. But I am not a lawyer. We advocate following the laws, that would include traffic and motor vehicle equipment laws. I do not know if his vehicle is in violation but if he gets pulled over a lot, his chances of encountering a unfriendly LEO are greater than if he is pulled over less.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
welcome to the forum...you have raised some good questions...

1. you are correct with the need for your son to get a PPP from the sheriff, IAW 14-402(a)
2. you are correct with your concepts of your son to being able to carry at 18, not being able to purchase from an FFL until 21, being allowed to gift a firearm to your son, but at 18 your son cannot purchase ammo for his newly gifted firearm.
3. you are incorrect, as previously mentioned by walking world, in your perception the sheriff is your best resource for you and your son to follow.
4. eh, the tint of your vehicle's windows is a mute point if your vehicle looks gangsta then you will draw attention of the nice LEs and it will go down hill from there.

references for your own reading enjoyment:
statutes: http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/ByArticle/Chapter_14/Article_52A.pdf
NC's AG opinion: http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299-a2a7-4ae5-99fd-9018262f64ac/NC-Firearms-gun-Laws.aspx

finally...enroll both you and your son into the NRA basic pistol course. why both of you, you ask? well it will allow you to hear what your son is taught and prevent disagreements between your weaknesses in pistol knowledge and what is a standard across the land. second, your son will benefit from being taught unbiased emotional trash you believe is the only way to safely handle a firearm.

ipse
 

rick12pats

Newbie
Joined
Feb 23, 2015
Messages
2
Location
Washington NC
Thank you for the advice. I did have every intention of having him go thru a NRA certified course. I now agree with your suggestion of attending with him and my wife also. Trying to get her comfortable shooting.
 

American Patriot

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Messages
280
Location
, ,
welcome to the forum...you have raised some good questions...

1. you are correct with the need for your son to get a PPP from the sheriff, IAW 14-402(a)
2. you are correct with your concepts of your son to being able to carry at 18, not being able to purchase from an FFL until 21, being allowed to gift a firearm to your son, but at 18 your son cannot purchase ammo for his newly gifted firearm.
3. you are incorrect, as previously mentioned by walking world, in your perception the sheriff is your best resource for you and your son to follow.
4. eh, the tint of your vehicle's windows is a mute point if your vehicle looks gangsta then you will draw attention of the nice LEs and it will go down hill from there.

references for your own reading enjoyment:
statutes: http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/ByArticle/Chapter_14/Article_52A.pdf
NC's AG opinion: http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299-a2a7-4ae5-99fd-9018262f64ac/NC-Firearms-gun-Laws.aspx

finally...enroll both you and your son into the NRA basic pistol course. why both of you, you ask? well it will allow you to hear what your son is taught and prevent disagreements between your weaknesses in pistol knowledge and what is a standard across the land. second, your son will benefit from being taught unbiased emotional trash you believe is the only way to safely handle a firearm.

ipse


27 CFR 478.99
A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector shall not sell or deliver (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than 18 years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition, is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than 21 years of age....


The above does not address buying handgun ammo from a private citizen while under age 21.
 

325rto

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
93
Location
Fayetteville, NC
welcome to the forum...you have raised some good questions...

1. you are correct with the need for your son to get a PPP from the sheriff, IAW 14-402(a)
2. you are correct with your concepts of your son to being able to carry at 18, not being able to purchase from an FFL until 21, being allowed to gift a firearm to your son, but at 18 your son cannot purchase ammo for his newly gifted firearm.
3. you are incorrect, as previously mentioned by walking world, in your perception the sheriff is your best resource for you and your son to follow.
4. eh, the tint of your vehicle's windows is a mute point if your vehicle looks gangsta then you will draw attention of the nice LEs and it will go down hill from there.

references for your own reading enjoyment:
statutes: http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/ByArticle/Chapter_14/Article_52A.pdf
NC's AG opinion: http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299-a2a7-4ae5-99fd-9018262f64ac/NC-Firearms-gun-Laws.aspx

finally...enroll both you and your son into the NRA basic pistol course. why both of you, you ask? well it will allow you to hear what your son is taught and prevent disagreements between your weaknesses in pistol knowledge and what is a standard across the land. second, your son will benefit from being taught unbiased emotional trash you believe is the only way to safely handle a firearm.

ipse


Great advice. Exactly the reason i intend to get certified as an nra pistol instructor.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
27 CFR 478.99 snip...

The above does not address buying handgun ammo from a private citizen while under age 21.

sigh, perhaps my sentence, speaking about FFLs selling firearms to individuals <21 lacked connectivity & clarity when I mentioned ammo in the same sentence. I of course shall do better in the future to avoid your confusion AP.

Once again, I shall reiterate, as JQPublic I will not purchase liqueur, smokes, or ammo to someone not legally capable of purchasing themselves.

However, AP please sell or give handgun ammo to those under < 21 as you see fit.

ipse
 

American Patriot

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Messages
280
Location
, ,
sigh, perhaps my sentence, speaking about FFLs selling firearms to individuals <21 lacked connectivity & clarity when I mentioned ammo in the same sentence. I of course shall do better in the future to avoid your confusion AP.

Once again, I shall reiterate, as JQPublic I will not purchase liqueur, smokes, or ammo to someone not legally capable of purchasing themselves.

However, AP please sell or give handgun ammo to those under < 21 as you see fit.

ipse

I they are legal to purchase a handgun at age 18 from a private sell they are also legal to buy ammo for the handgun at age 18.
 

bc.cruiser

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
786
Location
Fayetteville NC
I they are legal to purchase a handgun at age 18 from a private sell they are also legal to buy ammo for the handgun at age 18.


Perhaps you should also read 18 USC 922 (x):

(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—
(A) a handgun; or

(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

Note the use of "person" in place of "licensed dealer, etc." I realize that many ammunition calibers can be used in both long guns and handguns.
 
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American Patriot

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Messages
280
Location
, ,
Perhaps you should also read 18 USC 922 (x):

(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—
(A) a handgun; or

(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

Note the use of "person" in place of "licensed dealer, etc." I realize that many ammunition calibers can be used in both long guns and handguns.



NOTE the word Juvenile.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
I believe the point they are trying to hammer into your skull is that there is no law requiring them to sell to a person between the age of 18 and 20. Plus it IS unlawful to purchase ammo for someone that cannot purchase it themselves due to disabilities. That is called a straw purchase and is a felony.

You can stomp your internet feet all you want, but I do not have to sell ammo to anyone for any reason.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
I they are legal to purchase a handgun at age 18 from a private sell they are also legal to buy ammo for the handgun at age 18.

again, as mentioned by forum protocols...do you have a cite for your hyperbole?

ipse

(hint: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;
notice there is no mention of juvenile...)
(hint: <21 must still have PPP issued by sheriff!!)
 
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sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
again, as mentioned by forum protocols...do you have a cite for your hyperbole?

ipse

(hint: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;
notice there is no mention of juvenile...)
(hint: <21 must still have PPP issued by sheriff!!)

That doesn't seem to apply to private sales.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
That doesn't seem to apply to private sales.

sorry SVG, that post to AP was in response to BC's post where they used cite which used the word juvie...and an earlier post AP misrepresented themselves
additionally, >18 and over still need a PPP (private or commercial firearm sales) IAW NC statute...
'sides AP insists on posting hyperbole w/o any type of cite...

ipse
 

drsysadmin

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2014
Messages
126
Location
WNC
Perhaps you should also read 18 USC 922 (x):

(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—
(A) a handgun; or

(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

Note the use of "person" in place of "licensed dealer, etc." I realize that many ammunition calibers can be used in both long guns and handguns.

So according to 18 USC 922, it is illegal for me to take my children (ages 10 and 14) to the range and allow them to fire my handgun under my direct supervision. By "delivering" a loaded firearm to them I have violated both section A and B of this code.

Hmmm...
That interpretation just doesn't pass the smell test - but it IS how it could be interpreted due to its wording.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
So according to 18 USC 922, it is illegal for me to take my children (ages 10 and 14) to the range and allow them to fire my handgun under my direct supervision. By "delivering" a loaded firearm to them I have violated both section A and B of this code.

Hmmm...
That interpretation just doesn't pass the smell test - but it IS how it could be interpreted due to its wording.

sigh...US Code 922 unlawful acts, specifically chapter 44 reference unlawful acts concerning firearms and has absolutely nothing to do with taking your darling offspring shooting!

personally, you might need to worry more about the NC statutes of minors having access to your unattended firearms...

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-315.1.html

ispe
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
That doesn't seem to apply to private sales.

While it does not, just like alcohol, one cannot buy ammo for another that has a disability to purchase for themselves. That is called a straw purchase, considering it is a family member we are talking about I doubt the feds would file charges. But if a young person asks to another to buy ammo in Wally World for them, the best course of action is to just say no.

It is confusing, because you can buy a gun and sell it. But you can't buy a gun just to sell it or give it to a person not legal to buy it, same for ammo, IMO. Even though they are legal to possess the item.
 
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sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
While it does not, just like alcohol, one cannot buy ammo for another that has a disability to purchase for themselves. That is called a straw purchase, considering it is a family member we are talking about I doubt the feds would file charges. But if a young person asks to another to buy ammo in Wally World for them, the best course of action is to just say no.

It is confusing, because you can buy a gun and sell it. But you can't buy a gun just to sell it or give it to a person not legal to buy it, same for ammo, IMO. Even though they are legal to possess the item.

Like many laws they are confusing and worded to entrap.
 

bc.cruiser

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
786
Location
Fayetteville NC
So according to 18 USC 922, it is illegal for me to take my children (ages 10 and 14) to the range and allow them to fire my handgun under my direct supervision. By "delivering" a loaded firearm to them I have violated both section A and B of this code.

Hmmm...
That interpretation just doesn't pass the smell test - but it IS how it could be interpreted due to its wording.

As Solus indicated, that is not correct. You are not delivering or transferring any firearms.

The law is silent on private purchase or other transfer of ammo to those aged 18-21.
 
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