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Thread: Shipping a handgun to myself 594 issues?

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    Shipping a handgun to myself 594 issues?

    I've got a trip coming up where I will be unable to carry my handgun on the flight back. I will be jump seating on a commercial flight and wont be able to check bags like normal people do. I'd like to Fedex it back to myself but am wondering if there are any issues with 594 that might impact that plan.

    Any recommendations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    It would violate FEDEX company policy to ship the handgun to yourself, and if the shipment originates from out of state it would violate Federal law to not inform FEDEX in writing the shipment contains a handgun.
    Got a source for Fedex policy on shipping to myself? No issues notifying Fedex that its a handgun. But I wasn't aware it was a federal requirement.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    ... it would violate Federal law to not inform FEDEX in writing the shipment contains a handgun.
    I don't know about the FedEx policies, but I do know the part that says you have to tell them you are shipping a handgun (and use expedited shipping of some sort.) What I don't know, is what the penalty is if you don't...
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Well that sucks. Guess I have to pay a FFL to transfer my own gun to myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Can you pay the airline to transport it as cargo? Also if you send it to an FFL for the "sole purpose of repair or customization" they can return it to you without a 4473 or background check.
    It all depends on the situation at the moment I get to the airport. Don't know if you have ever flown jump seat with the airlines but its a hit or miss sort of thing. I wont know if I am on a particular flight till the doors close and we push back from the gate. So usually I have to get through security before I know I am on a flight.

    The cargo suggestion is an idea though. I'll check into it.

    For the FFL issue. I believe most FFLs will want to run a background check. I've taken a couple of firearms in for work and every single time they wanted a background check. I've decided not to get some work done as a result of some FFLs procedures. I'll call around tomorrow in case I get stuck but I doubt a FFL is going to be willing to take on the risk given today's anti gun environment in the Seattle area. Last I checked it was only $35 I think for a background check so not a huge loss if I end up having to ship to a FFL.

    Unless a FFL member here is willing to work with me and wants to speak up or PM me?

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    Probably not the solution you are looking for, but what about leaving it behind?

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by av8tr1 View Post
    Well that sucks. Guess I have to pay a FFL to transfer my own gun to myself.
    I read the reg a few times and it refers to Licensed" people. I do not see any numerical identification of the type of FFL required. That said.
    I have an 03 FFL. As a "licensed" person can I ship my own stuff from me to me, across State lines? Again, I do not see a differentiation between FFLs, just a "requirement"(I hate that) to be "licensed.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    From the ATF: http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/in...top-10-qas.pdf

    6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?
    Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.
    www.WaGuns.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by acmariner99 View Post
    Probably not the solution you are looking for, but what about leaving it behind?
    I need to find a solution to this as this is going to be a common event due to the new job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Both the UPS and FEDEX terms of service specifically allow Licensed Collectors. So, the way I see it, it is not against Federal law to ship a gun to yourself in another state, regardless of FFL status. As a licensed collector you would not be violating UPS or FEDEX terms of service to ship to yourself because there is no requirement in their terms of service that the firearm being shipped must meet the requirements for a C&R. Seems like a Licensed Collector shipping any firearm to themselves would meet all requirements of Federal law and UPS/FEDEX Terms of Service.

    Heck, considering the above statement, I don't see why av8tr1 could not ship a handgun to himself from out of state, in care of you, in compliance with Federal law and UPS/FEDEX Terms and Conditions of Service and then he picks up the unopened package from you. Federal law does not consider that to be a transfer of a firearm.
    But I am not a licensed collector at the moment and I would need to be the licensed collector for the gun to be shipped to me under that idea. At least from my understanding of what defines a licensed collector. Nothing in my collection meets the definition of curio or relic firearms. (Source: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/collectors.html)

    I was thinking of applying for a FFL down the road. But that doesn't help me now.

    I think the cargo idea will probably work if I can't get a ticket at the counter.

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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by av8tr1 View Post
    I need to find a solution to this as this is going to be a common event due to the new job.
    We all say that we wont give our money to an anti gun business,,,, dont we?

    Well, these shippers move millions of boxes every day!
    They dont care what is in them! Unless...
    You bend to their "policy".. telling them,, it is a gun!

    Well dont do that!
    Their is no LAW against shipping your own gun to yourself... Just an anti gun policy.

    Go to the wrecking yard, buy a couple of pistons, connecting rods and some nut and bolts.
    Pack them in a box with your gun and tell them its car parts when you ship it....

    [flame suit unnecessary]
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by av8tr1 View Post
    I've got a trip coming up where I will be unable to carry my handgun on the flight back. I will be jump seating on a commercial flight and wont be able to check bags like normal people do. I'd like to Fedex it back to myself but am wondering if there are any issues with 594 that might impact that plan.

    Any recommendations?
    forgive a wanderer's jumping in, but yo'all been worried about fedex/ups channels...how bout we discern a few salient points..

    first of all, how did you get the firearm to your point of origin? did you purchase this firearm new at your point of origin? are you planning on returning to the point of origin repeatedly where you believe you will want this firearm to carry in the near future while there? what are you planning on doing with the ammo for said firearm?

    second, where exactly are your points of origin, stop overs, and destination? are you originating or stopping at no firearms locations, like NY or MDW, etc?

    what is the specific problem(s) for flying jump seat after checking a bag through the aeroline's baggage system while declaring the firearm. unless you are trying to do it from a no firearm location? at which point it sounds like you are trying to transport something illegally. are you an employee of said aeroline or doing this on courtesy basis? is this aeroline domestic or foreign you are catching the jump with?

    as for 594, (yes familiar with the provisions) if you are the owner of the firearm and you are sending it to yourself what difference does it make as there is no xfer of ownership....

    something hasn't clicked yet with this situation as yo'al are focus'g on fedex/ups policy...my friend who is a commercial pilot tell me this isn't an obstacle for checking a bag?

    just saying

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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  13. #13
    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    That doesn't change the fact that FedEx and UPS won't accept the shipment unless either the shipper or recipient is an FFL.
    Do you announce to the mall security guard that you are carrying concealed?
    www.WaGuns.org

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by av8tr1 View Post
    It all depends on the situation at the moment I get to the airport. Don't know if you have ever flown jump seat with the airlines but its a hit or miss sort of thing. I wont know if I am on a particular flight till the doors close and we push back from the gate. So usually I have to get through security before I know I am on a flight.
    I was a captain for American Airlines until I retired in 2003, and I jump seated hundreds of times. I realize this is old information, and probably a different airline, but at that time I could check my bag before going to the gate. The bag would not be loaded until I was issued a jump seat boarding pass. If I couldn't get on the flight, the bag was returned to me at baggage claim. Of course, I followed all the regulations pertaining to checking a bag with a firearm. It's a PITA, but it always worked for me. Although I jump seated on other airlines, I never did so with a gun. Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    That doesn't change the fact that FedEx and UPS won't accept the shipment unless either the shipper or recipient is an FFL.
    I just did this back in November without issue.

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by av8tr1 View Post
    I need to find a solution to this as this is going to be a common event due to the new job.
    I don't see why your airline wouldn't allow you to check a bag. A couple of folks above gave some examples of how that might work. I certainly hope you don't have to fly through a lot of restrictive cities or states. In that case, to stay legal you will have to leave your firearm behind.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    The 03FFL is only thirty bucks and comes to the door rather quickly. It is good for three years and opens up a great deal of opportunities, to include "dealer" discounts.

    http://www.crffl.org/

    What is an FFL?
    A Federal Firearms License is a federal license required to deal in firearms. The different types of FFL are:
    Type 01 - DEALER IN FIREARMS (GUN SHOP, for example)
    Type 02 - PAWNBROKER
    Type 03 - COLLECTOR OF CURIOS AND RELICS (C&R FFL)
    Type 06 - MANUFACTURER OF AMMUNITION FOR FIREARMS
    Type 07 - MANUFACTURER OF FIREARMS
    Type 08 - IMPORTER OF FIREARMS / AMMUNITION
    Type 09 - DEALER IN DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES
    Type 10 - MANUFACTURER OF DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES
    Type 11 - IMPORTER OF DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    forgive a wanderer's jumping in, but yo'all been worried about fedex/ups channels...how bout we discern a few salient points..

    first of all, how did you get the firearm to your point of origin? did you purchase this firearm new at your point of origin? are you planning on returning to the point of origin repeatedly where you believe you will want this firearm to carry in the near future while there? what are you planning on doing with the ammo for said firearm?

    second, where exactly are your points of origin, stop overs, and destination? are you originating or stopping at no firearms locations, like NY or MDW, etc?

    what is the specific problem(s) for flying jump seat after checking a bag through the aeroline's baggage system while declaring the firearm. unless you are trying to do it from a no firearm location? at which point it sounds like you are trying to transport something illegally. are you an employee of said aeroline or doing this on courtesy basis? is this aeroline domestic or foreign you are catching the jump with?

    as for 594, (yes familiar with the provisions) if you are the owner of the firearm and you are sending it to yourself what difference does it make as there is no xfer of ownership....

    something hasn't clicked yet with this situation as yo'al are focus'g on fedex/ups policy...my friend who is a commercial pilot tell me this isn't an obstacle for checking a bag?

    just saying

    ipse
    Solus,
    I've been vague for Opsec reasons. The firearm is my personal weapon and has been owned by me for years. I am legal to carry in all places I will be, however the location I am traveling to is in an area where I am not comfortable going unarmed.

    I am a commercial pilot starting a new job. Prior to this I flew part 91/135 type charters. For those of you non-pilots these are all the other aviation jobs outside of the airlines. Recently got hired by an airline. I am heading to training on a commercial ticket as I am not in the system with jump seat privileges until I complete company training. So my baggage will be checked just like normal with a TSA inspection. I do this a couple of times a month so its not an issue.

    On the way home though I will be flying jump seat. There are a number of pilots who make the same commute home that I will be, we all live close to each other. They usually use a regular Fedex flight and suggested I do the same as it is the most direct route home. However I have been told that usually they carry their own bags on board rather than checking them. So Jumpseat on a Fedex would violate the rules of aircraft and guns. So my other option is to find a passenger carrying flight that isn't direct to home and makes my trip considerably longer. Plus there is an added issue of the process of jumpseat approval, which for Opsec reasons I can't be specific here. Other than to say I am required to get approval with the captain of the particular flight I want to ride back with. Which would require me to go through a secure area before I know I am on that flight. I would have to do something with my bags prior to entering the secure area if I am transporting a firearm. Normally I would just have my bags checked. But what happens if I am not able to get on that flight that the bags were loaded on?

    I would ship the firearm but as has been pointed out here, Fedex and UPS have company policies that do not allow for shipping a handgun to yourself. While legal to ship to myself since it is my personal firearm, the company policy is the issue here.

    I am merely trying to follow the complicated rules here and have no interest in trying to circumvent the laws. There are more than just Washington State issues at play and I am trying to find the most appropriate legal path taking into account, Federal and State firearm laws, plus FAA and TSA laws for more than just firearms. Since its my first time as an airline employee I am trying to be proactive and figure this all out before leaving on my trip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajetpilot View Post
    I was a captain for American Airlines until I retired in 2003, and I jump seated hundreds of times. I realize this is old information, and probably a different airline, but at that time I could check my bag before going to the gate. The bag would not be loaded until I was issued a jump seat boarding pass. If I couldn't get on the flight, the bag was returned to me at baggage claim. Of course, I followed all the regulations pertaining to checking a bag with a firearm. It's a PITA, but it always worked for me. Although I jump seated on other airlines, I never did so with a gun. Good luck.
    Perfect! Thats the info I have been looking for. Hopefully that works for me as well.

    I was starting to think I would have to find a storage locker for my bag outside of the secure area while I went to the gate to get a jumpseat pass. Then run back, check my bag on the flight and do the OJ run back to the gate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    The 03FFL is only thirty bucks and comes to the door rather quickly. It is good for three years and opens up a great deal of opportunities, to include "dealer" discounts.

    http://www.crffl.org/

    What is an FFL?
    A Federal Firearms License is a federal license required to deal in firearms. The different types of FFL are:
    Type 01 - DEALER IN FIREARMS (GUN SHOP, for example)
    Type 02 - PAWNBROKER
    Type 03 - COLLECTOR OF CURIOS AND RELICS (C&R FFL)
    Type 06 - MANUFACTURER OF AMMUNITION FOR FIREARMS
    Type 07 - MANUFACTURER OF FIREARMS
    Type 08 - IMPORTER OF FIREARMS / AMMUNITION
    Type 09 - DEALER IN DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES
    Type 10 - MANUFACTURER OF DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES
    Type 11 - IMPORTER OF DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES
    The problem is that a Type 03 is very specific to the types of guns


    1. any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
    2. any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —
      1. is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
      2. uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

    3. any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

    To be recognized by ATF as a C&R firearm, a firearm must fall into at least one of the following three categories:

    1. Firearms manufactured more than 50 years prior to the current date, not including replicas
    2. Firearms certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum that exhibits firearms as curios or relics of museum interest
    3. Any other firearms that derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category requires evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.



    Nothing I own meets this definition. So I wouldn't be able to apply and be in compliance with the law with my current collection.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I think you are missing our point. You would not be using the Type 03 FFL to comply with a law because the law already allows you to ship the firearm to yourself without the FFL. You would use your Type 03 to comply with FEDEX and UPS company policy ONLY. There is nothing in their Tariffs that state a Type 03 FFL can only ship C&R firearms.

    Looks like counter to counter airline cargo might be your best bet. United, at least, accepts firearms:
    http://www.unitedcargo.com/ShowFiles...les_Tariff.pdf
    Yep, you're right. I missed that. Thanks.

    Thanks everyone else. Appreciate the guidance here.

  22. #22
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    thanks for taking the time to respond and best of luck in your position...one final point, be cautious on using a C/R FFL to ship...it could bite you in the arse if an ATF agent 'happens' to check FedEx's shipments...

    again, good luck...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  23. #23
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    What Federal law or regulation that ATF has the authority to enforce would be violated?
    well Commander, as the op pointed out in his post C/R FFLs have very stringent firearm age criteria yet you advocated in a follow up post he could circumvent shipping policies as the organization(s) wouldn't know the difference. if you believe ATF does not have authority to assure inter/intra state firearm shipment(s) meet their regulatory compliance to include inspection activities I am truly disappointed in your naivety being expressed. remember, mate the package would be suitably marked as a firearm as it is shipped overnight as mandated by the transportation entities' established shipping policies.

    finally, if AFT doesn't have the regulatory authority I am sure Homeland does...

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 02-27-2015 at 07:17 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  24. #24
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    lets see Commander...
    you advocate using the C/R FFL to put a firearm not meeting C/R criteria into the transportation channels to circumvent transportation policies
    you have the C/R telling the transportation agent they are shipping a firearm in the box,
    you have a shipment which is mandatorily by "transporter's policy" expedited overnight,
    you have the "to" address listed in the FFL database,

    and yet you exhibit the naivety to believe the federal regulatory agency(ies) do not have connections to automatically and instantly verify the shipping organization's shipping database of expedited shipments against a gaggle of their onboard data and a rogue fed out to make a name for themselves can't inspect ?

    this same naivety which perhaps doesn't believe the intelligence agencies, as advertised of late, do not have loaded social media fotos w/names, etc., into their super secret intel databases to use for their own nefarious use?

    lot of what ifs isn't it...but let's see didn't some bloke go to the highest court to overturn a strawman conviction because some LE found a two/three year old receipt from a gun dealer for a gun he bought for his uncle. Hummmm....the highest court of the land upheld the conviction...

    and who paid for all this legal defence, eh mate? why oh why commander, do you want to put yourself into a position where you have to expend $$$ to defend yourself? Finally, if that wasn't enough and the feds do not or can not do anything, the ops new employer or the FAA might wish to look hard at their employment situation or license.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 02-27-2015 at 08:40 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    lets see Commander...
    you advocate using the C/R FFL to put a firearm not meeting C/R criteria into the transportation channels to circumvent transportation policies
    you have the C/R telling the transportation agent they are shipping a firearm in the box,
    you have a shipment which is mandatorily by "transporter's policy" expedited overnight,
    you have the "to" address listed in the FFL database,

    and yet you exhibit the naivety to believe the federal regulatory agency(ies) do not have connections to automatically and instantly verify the shipping organization's shipping database of expedited shipments against a gaggle of their onboard data and a rogue fed out to make a name for themselves can't inspect ?

    this same naivety which perhaps doesn't believe the intelligence agencies, as advertised of late, do not have loaded social media fotos w/names, etc., into their super secret intel databases to use for their own nefarious use?

    lot of what ifs isn't it...but let's see didn't some bloke go to the highest court to overturn a strawman conviction because some LE found a two/three year old receipt from a gun dealer for a gun he bought for his uncle. Hummmm....the highest court of the land upheld the conviction...

    and who paid for all this legal defence, eh mate? why oh why commander, do you want to put yourself into a position where you have to expend $$$ to defend yourself? Finally, if that wasn't enough and the feds do not or can not do anything, the ops new employer or the FAA might wish to look hard at their employment situation or license.

    ipse
    Either I am missing your point, or you are missing his. There is no violation of law because no FFL is required to ship a firearm to yourself. ATF doesn't give a rat's ass what the carrier's policies are or how you fulfill them.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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