Yep, you're right. I missed that. Thanks.
Thanks everyone else. Appreciate the guidance here.
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Shipping a handgun to myself 594 issues?
- Thread starter av8tr1
- Start date
Yep, you're right. I missed that. Thanks.
Thanks everyone else. Appreciate the guidance here.
thanks for taking the time to respond and best of luck in your position...one final point, be cautious on using a C/R FFL to ship...it could bite you in the arse if an ATF agent 'happens' to check FedEx's shipments...
again, good luck...
ipse
again, good luck...
ipse
well Commander, as the op pointed out in his post C/R FFLs have very stringent firearm age criteria yet you advocated in a follow up post he could circumvent shipping policies as the organization(s) wouldn't know the difference. if you believe ATF does not have authority to assure inter/intra state firearm shipment(s) meet their regulatory compliance to include inspection activities I am truly disappointed in your naivety being expressed. remember, mate the package would be suitably marked as a firearm as it is shipped overnight as mandated by the transportation entities' established shipping policies.
finally, if AFT doesn't have the regulatory authority I am sure Homeland does...
ipse
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lets see Commander...
you advocate using the C/R FFL to put a firearm not meeting C/R criteria into the transportation channels to circumvent transportation policies
you have the C/R telling the transportation agent they are shipping a firearm in the box,
you have a shipment which is mandatorily by "transporter's policy" expedited overnight,
you have the "to" address listed in the FFL database,
and yet you exhibit the naivety to believe the federal regulatory agency(ies) do not have connections to automatically and instantly verify the shipping organization's shipping database of expedited shipments against a gaggle of their onboard data and a rogue fed out to make a name for themselves can't inspect ?
this same naivety which perhaps doesn't believe the intelligence agencies, as advertised of late, do not have loaded social media fotos w/names, etc., into their super secret intel databases to use for their own nefarious use?
lot of what ifs isn't it...but let's see didn't some bloke go to the highest court to overturn a strawman conviction because some LE found a two/three year old receipt from a gun dealer for a gun he bought for his uncle. Hummmm....the highest court of the land upheld the conviction...
and who paid for all this legal defence, eh mate? why oh why commander, do you want to put yourself into a position where you have to expend $$$ to defend yourself? Finally, if that wasn't enough and the feds do not or can not do anything, the ops new employer or the FAA might wish to look hard at their employment situation or license.
ipse
you advocate using the C/R FFL to put a firearm not meeting C/R criteria into the transportation channels to circumvent transportation policies
you have the C/R telling the transportation agent they are shipping a firearm in the box,
you have a shipment which is mandatorily by "transporter's policy" expedited overnight,
you have the "to" address listed in the FFL database,
and yet you exhibit the naivety to believe the federal regulatory agency(ies) do not have connections to automatically and instantly verify the shipping organization's shipping database of expedited shipments against a gaggle of their onboard data and a rogue fed out to make a name for themselves can't inspect ?
this same naivety which perhaps doesn't believe the intelligence agencies, as advertised of late, do not have loaded social media fotos w/names, etc., into their super secret intel databases to use for their own nefarious use?
lot of what ifs isn't it...but let's see didn't some bloke go to the highest court to overturn a strawman conviction because some LE found a two/three year old receipt from a gun dealer for a gun he bought for his uncle. Hummmm....the highest court of the land upheld the conviction...
and who paid for all this legal defence, eh mate? why oh why commander, do you want to put yourself into a position where you have to expend $$$ to defend yourself? Finally, if that wasn't enough and the feds do not or can not do anything, the ops new employer or the FAA might wish to look hard at their employment situation or license.
ipse
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Either I am missing your point, or you are missing his. There is no violation of law because no FFL is required to ship a firearm to yourself. ATF doesn't give a rat's ass what the carrier's policies are or how you fulfill them.
Commander, first thanks for enticing me to review ATF's regulatory documents which was quite refreshing, especially, the reference guide...actually quite enlightening...
now, since ethics doesn't seem to play into your overall consciousness, but you are of course right, I am sure no where in the commerce regulatory documentation that governmental agents wouldn't or couldn't inspect commercial packages...but you might wish to read 27 CFR 478.23 as well as 478.26 which delineates C/R criteria as well as 478.31 all provisions.
MAC, sorry the commander advocates the OP pursuing getting a C/R FFL so the OP could go to a commercial transportation entity to proclaim the modern firearm they wish to ship back to themselves qualifies as a C/R so the OP can get their firearm back to their home state thus circumventing having the OP go through FFL > FFL channels.
sorry Commander & MAC, et al., I have been expressing a moral ethical ground and as explained, putting yourself in front of the feds to have to defend yourself is not money well spent. yes, you might get away once, but like I indicated, our overseers do not always have to follow their own rules...
kinda liken it to conduct unbecoming...might not have a specific article violated in the UCMJ but trust me you will be given disciplinary action by your CO.
press with your behaviour(s) as I am not versed in commerce regulatory or homeland's inspection scope.
ipse
now, since ethics doesn't seem to play into your overall consciousness, but you are of course right, I am sure no where in the commerce regulatory documentation that governmental agents wouldn't or couldn't inspect commercial packages...but you might wish to read 27 CFR 478.23 as well as 478.26 which delineates C/R criteria as well as 478.31 all provisions.
MAC, sorry the commander advocates the OP pursuing getting a C/R FFL so the OP could go to a commercial transportation entity to proclaim the modern firearm they wish to ship back to themselves qualifies as a C/R so the OP can get their firearm back to their home state thus circumventing having the OP go through FFL > FFL channels.
sorry Commander & MAC, et al., I have been expressing a moral ethical ground and as explained, putting yourself in front of the feds to have to defend yourself is not money well spent. yes, you might get away once, but like I indicated, our overseers do not always have to follow their own rules...
kinda liken it to conduct unbecoming...might not have a specific article violated in the UCMJ but trust me you will be given disciplinary action by your CO.
press with your behaviour(s) as I am not versed in commerce regulatory or homeland's inspection scope.
ipse
I didn't see it that way at all. Indeed, the private policy seems to purposely exempt ALL FFL holders as persons fit to be exempt from the policy, regardless of whether the firearm itself is something that would qualify for that particular license in OTHER types of shipping that would need a license.
My contention, as an FFL, whether ethically or regulatorily, you know what you can and cannot ship whether or not the xportation entity does or not. Further, whether or not the ATF or homeland or other governmental agency inspects the expedited firearm package you sent out, it is recorded/documented etc., in the xportation entity's computer as a firearm. of course the package isn't marked per se, but in the system is tracking a package as a firearm, if not then the xportation entities are not quite as legally smart as i believe.
then, it appears i owe the Commander an apology as i am the naive one (smart arse comment on) and i believe the warren commission's report, Kennedy's report of the bay of Pigs, Nixon's version of events, the invasion of afghan would go better than the CCCP's, and oh ya, bush's versions of WMD in the middle east. (smart arse comment off)
in closing...so MAC. you're hold a type 1 FFL w/o a class 3 tax stamp...therefore, you believe you could send NFA qualifying firearms through commercial transportation channels, e.g., FedEx, UPS, or USPS, with impunity just cuz you felt like it?
i do so want to know how that works out for you...
as stated numerous times, to advocate being ethically incorrect with the possibility of having to defend myself against judicial reprisals is a choice i do not wish to make...some might wish to take that chance.
ipse
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I honestly am missing your point, then. The FFL and the carrier's policies are independent (I am not using your analogy of the NFA items here because I honestly don't know what it means). The FFL is not needed to be legal to ship a firearm to yourself. Now if a carrier won't do it unless you have some documentation that you are a background-checked individual, then that's his right as a businessman. He might accept several things to document this. Maybe a CCW permit. Maybe a LEO ID. Maybe an FFL of any kind. Maybe a signed letter from his mother. What difference does it make when it has nothing to do with the legality of it?
I see nothing ethically wrong with this, either, except maybe the letter from his mother.
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1245A Defender
Regular Member
Wowwie!!!
Solus!!! You just dont seem to even want to get it!!
The gun owner can legally own the gun he wants to ship! it is not NFA!
The gun owner can legally ship his own gun, to himself, anywhere he is legal to possess it! no BATFE law against it.
The ONLY hang up is the made up Policy of the Anti Rights, Anti Gun business that ships millions of boxes daily!
IF,,, the gun owner had a type 03 FFL,,, the easiest type to get,
then he could tell the shipping business that he is sending it to an FFL!
The shipping business Only want to follow their policy of shipping "GUNS" to FFLs!!
Solus!!! You just dont seem to even want to get it!!
The gun owner can legally own the gun he wants to ship! it is not NFA!
The gun owner can legally ship his own gun, to himself, anywhere he is legal to possess it! no BATFE law against it.
The ONLY hang up is the made up Policy of the Anti Rights, Anti Gun business that ships millions of boxes daily!
IF,,, the gun owner had a type 03 FFL,,, the easiest type to get,
then he could tell the shipping business that he is sending it to an FFL!
The shipping business Only want to follow their policy of shipping "GUNS" to FFLs!!
Bill Starks
State Researcher
No one is breaking a law, they are only breaking a RULE with Fed Ex, if they ship it to themselves in another state without an FFL.
How many time do you carry into a place that sets rules on carrying a firearm? Are you breaking a law or a store rule.
With a C&R you meet the rules established by Fed EX. As long as you ship the weapon in the guidelines set forth by the ATF you are breaking no laws.
You folks are making this issue out to be more than it needs to be.
How many time do you carry into a place that sets rules on carrying a firearm? Are you breaking a law or a store rule.
With a C&R you meet the rules established by Fed EX. As long as you ship the weapon in the guidelines set forth by the ATF you are breaking no laws.
You folks are making this issue out to be more than it needs to be.
ok, please , to put this to rest defender, clarify my thinking and explain in detail the concept how the gun owner can legally ship their own gun from say WA to NC to himself w/o a licensee involved . btw, please leave out the rhetoric about anti anything as it is strictly your own ranting and distraction...oh also please leave out the FFL concepts since your initial statements referenced 'a gun owner' who i presume is JqPublic.
i will grant you a boon and not require atf /regulatory/commerce cites on this example in a effort to quantify this for everyone.
btw, thanks for your assistance in this exercise...
ipse
bill, as always you caught the drift...you are correct it is strictly an ethical issue not a regulatory issue...
but sometimes you get caught breaking the store rule and the judicial system steps in, which i try to avoid.
ipse
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1245A Defender
Regular Member
Wowwie!!!!
I did tell you,,, I did speak clearly,,, But I cant "Make" you understand...
I guess,,,, I loose....
Thanks for playing...
I did tell you,,, I did speak clearly,,, But I cant "Make" you understand...
I guess,,,, I loose....
Thanks for playing...
MSG Laigaie
Campaign Veteran
An FFL is required to ship, no numerical designation. Show the FFL and it goes. The rule is satisfied. No law broken.
Are you arguing just to argue, or can you see the Truth in this? I guess not.
I think I will stop by my shipper today and review the policy again. I will report back.
I did tell you,,, I did speak clearly,,, But I cant "Make" you understand...
I guess,,,, I loose....
Thanks for playing...
no sir, sorry your post didn't 'speak clearly' at all but rather you felt the need to raise your voice following with a condensing rant about my comprehension.
therefore, for the benefit of OC membership per your previous rant, you were asked to explain how you as a gun owner are going to ship a modern firearm from WA to NC w/o using an FFL on either end to complete the shipment.
please be explicit on which transportation entity you will be using as i am sure other members will utilize the same methodology in their shipping activities..
I eagerly await your reply.
ipse.
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no i am sure i am not arguing for the sake, but rather assuring the misinformation presented is understood as misinformation and could get someone in trouble judicially.
as i stated it is an ethical issue that an C/R FFL is limited to only those firearms covered by his FFL. if you will recall as i asked MAC, if you are a type 1 w/o tax stamp, you are not allowed to ship NFA type firearms, silencers etc. period!
further, as Bill pointed out, if i wish to carry in a store with their 'made up rule(s)' then i am being unethical. however, if the store wishes to push my rule breaking to the judicial side that i broke their 'rule', they can with impunity, and I would then have to defend myself in the judicial system ~ civil or criminal depending on how prissy the LE and judicial is when it comes to a hearing.
finally, with the transportation entities being in bed with the feds per se, you do not think an over zealous agent couldn't determined, in my example to MAC, type 1 w/o NFA tax stamp, had exceeded my license charter quite quickly when they find silencers etc., in my shipment!
await to hear how your shipper responds...might ask if in their database the box containing a firearm is annotated as such.
ipse
once again i thank the membership for forcing me to stick to my guns which in turn showed what i perceived as an ethical issue is in fact a legal issue: per your request Commander, et al:
source: ATF P-5300.4, dtd 2005:
923 Licensing.
(b) Any person desiring to be licensed as a collector shall file an application for such license with the Attorney General. The application shall be in such form and contain only that information necessary to determine eligibility as the Attorney General shall by regulation prescribe. The fee for such license shall be $10 per year. Any license granted under this subsection shall only apply to transactions in curios and relics. (IPSE’s emphasis)
§ 478.93 Authorized operations by a licensed collector.
The license issued to a collector of curios or relics under the provisions of this part shall cover only transactions by the licensed collector in curios and relics. The collector's license is of no force or effect and a licensed collector is of the same status under the Act and this part as a nonlicensee with respect to (a) any acquisition or disposition of firearms other than curios or relics, or any transportation, shipment, or receipt of firearms other than curios or relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and (b) any transaction with a nonlicensee involving any firearm other than a curio or relic. (See also § 478.50.) remainder snip as it refers to C/R and dealing with ammo.
478.94 Sales or deliveries between licensees.
A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary.
to address what some quantified as illegal searc:
§ 478.23 Right of entry and examination.
c) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in closest proximity to the collector’s premises.
therefore, if you present your C/R license to xportation agents to ship a modern firearm you are in obvious violation of the terms of your license IAW 478.93 and subject to judicial punishment. Additionally, as pointed out in 478.23, ATF agents DO NOT need reasonable cause nor Federal judicial permission to enter or inspect! which means the xportation channels are fair game if they 'feel' a violation of the act has or is about to occur.
again thanks fun exercise and memory refresher...I hope Commander that settles the question regarding the responsibilities of a C/R licensee under the law which has clearly been demonstrated by the cites provided?
ipse
source: ATF P-5300.4, dtd 2005:
923 Licensing.
(b) Any person desiring to be licensed as a collector shall file an application for such license with the Attorney General. The application shall be in such form and contain only that information necessary to determine eligibility as the Attorney General shall by regulation prescribe. The fee for such license shall be $10 per year. Any license granted under this subsection shall only apply to transactions in curios and relics. (IPSE’s emphasis)
§ 478.93 Authorized operations by a licensed collector.
The license issued to a collector of curios or relics under the provisions of this part shall cover only transactions by the licensed collector in curios and relics. The collector's license is of no force or effect and a licensed collector is of the same status under the Act and this part as a nonlicensee with respect to (a) any acquisition or disposition of firearms other than curios or relics, or any transportation, shipment, or receipt of firearms other than curios or relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and (b) any transaction with a nonlicensee involving any firearm other than a curio or relic. (See also § 478.50.) remainder snip as it refers to C/R and dealing with ammo.
478.94 Sales or deliveries between licensees.
A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary.
to address what some quantified as illegal searc:
§ 478.23 Right of entry and examination.
c) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in closest proximity to the collector’s premises.
therefore, if you present your C/R license to xportation agents to ship a modern firearm you are in obvious violation of the terms of your license IAW 478.93 and subject to judicial punishment. Additionally, as pointed out in 478.23, ATF agents DO NOT need reasonable cause nor Federal judicial permission to enter or inspect! which means the xportation channels are fair game if they 'feel' a violation of the act has or is about to occur.
again thanks fun exercise and memory refresher...I hope Commander that settles the question regarding the responsibilities of a C/R licensee under the law which has clearly been demonstrated by the cites provided?
ipse
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