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Thread: Body cams will not boost police-community relations:Task force seeks hiring, training

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    Body cams will not boost police-community relations:Task force seeks hiring, training

    Putting more body cameras on police will not improve the relationship between law enforcement and the communities they oversee, according to a presidential task force report.

    Instead, more minority hiring, better training, improved civilian oversight and the decoupling of immigration enforcement with local policing, will help to mend tensions between minorities and local law enforcement, said a draft report released Monday by a panel created by President Obama.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-relations-re/

    The report

    http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/pdf/taskfo..._TF_Report.pdf 1.6 MB 115 pages

    The Task Force

    http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/default.asp?Item=2761

    Google Real Time coverage
    https://news.google.com/news/rtc?ncl...R3GwruKlirKfSM 216 articles ATM
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Funny, the minority communities have pretty much demanded body cams on police, and Obama thinks ignoring their wishes is the way to go. Sounds like he does not want to rock the boat of his private army.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 03-03-2015 at 04:07 AM.
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    More body cameras alone won't fix it, sure. You also have to hold them accountable along with those other things listed.

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    They need to have a review process for misbehavior like the NTSB for airlines, also. It's separate and looks at the facts and its decisions are binding.

    No more 'in-house' investigations or internal affairs making closed-door decisions in favor of naughty employees or using paid time off and wrist slaps.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 03-03-2015 at 07:43 AM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Dump cop unions and many of the issues will disappear overnight.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Funny, the minority communities have pretty much demanded body cams on police, and Obama thinks ignoring their wishes is the way to go. Sounds like he does not want to rock the boat of his private army.
    I know family who are minority and they have this to say about cops who share their same ethnicity. "They are all blue".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    They need to have a review process for misbehavior like the NTSB for airlines, also. It's separate and looks at the facts and its decisions are binding. No more 'in-house' investigations or internal affairs making closed-door decisions in favor of naughty employees or using paid time off and wrist slaps.
    Is there anything else that you would like the state to do?

    Local communities, the ones that pay for the misdeeds in blood and bucks, must take control.
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Putting more body cameras on police will not improve the relationship between law enforcement and the communities they oversee, according to a presidential task force report.
    Aye. There's the problem.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    More body cameras alone won't fix it, sure. You also have to hold them accountable along with those other things listed.
    And camera's do that. Some departments have had a 50 - 80% reduction in complaints against officers when body cameras are worn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I know family who are minority and they have this to say about cops who share their same ethnicity. "They are all blue".
    ^ This, this is the real problem. Or put in other terms, it might be that many in the inner cities (ie lower socio-economic classes and coincidentally racial minorities) view police officers (white, black, and otherwise) as imposing unwanted, foreign rules on them.

    From a former police reporter:

    Much of the column is grossly, politically incorrect and thus subject to emotional cries of "racism". But this central thesis seems worthy of some thought regardless:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Reed
    Meanwhile the blacks see white policemen as hostile occupiers, much as Parisians in 1943 saw their Wehrmacht masters . White cops seem agents of an alien and hostile race, always pushing them around. Speaking as one who has spent many, many nights patrolling with cops in black regions, I know well why the blacks feel this way:

    “Hey, you! Yeah, you, with the beer in your hand. Pour it out. You can’t drink in public. I said pour…it…out.”

    ...
    Now, full disclosure, I cannot claim any of the personal experience that Fed does. But, I have sensed some of what he describes among members here. Police, regardless of race, are sometimes viewed among some members as enforcing unwanted, unjust, foreign rules onto us.

    Do residents of inner-cities and/or racial/ethnic minorities feel this to an even larger degree? If so, the problem has less to do with how the police are doing their jobs and a lot more to do with what job legislators and governors are asking police to do.

    If public consumption, public gambling, drug use, disorderly conduct, DUI, and other such things are not recognized by a given society as real crimes, attempts to enforce laws against that conduct will not be well received no matter how polite the cops are. On the flip side, if insults to honor, violation of territory, or "snitching" are seen as real offenses, worthy of real punishment cops are going to have a real challenge.

    Food for thought I think.

    Body cameras can reduce bad conduct on the part of the officers, and (probably even more often) reduce unfounded complaints from suspects. But in the end, if the laws being enforce are offensive to the population/society, the resentment is not going to go away, even if the rate of police brutality drops to 0.

    If cops were enforcing gun bans in clear violation of the Constitution and the culture of many regions of the nation, sooner or later some number of gun owners would object, resist--perhaps violently--and even those of us who abided the laws would resent the enforcement of those laws. We might feel that those who violated the laws were at least somewhat morally justified. We might compare these laws to the Jim Crow laws of segregation days and we might view those who resisted their enforcement as our generation's version of the civil rights protesters who engaged in civil disobedience.

    But please don't infer that me thinking about something or offering it up for thought implies anything about my personal position on that something.

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    Last edited by utbagpiper; 03-10-2015 at 07:39 PM.
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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    "Putting more body cameras on police will not improve the relationship between law enforcement and the communities they oversee"
    "Instead, more minority hiring, better training, improved civilian oversight and the decoupling of immigration enforcement with local policing, will help to mend tensions between minorities and local law enforcement"

    So now "communities" is used interchangeably with minorities or minority neighborhoods?

    IMO what will help "ease tensions" the most is if police would just do their damn duty, nothing less and nothing more. But no, according to these bozos, we really need more people in uniform that happen to have the same color skin as those they're oppressing. That'll help. Sure. What a crock of crap.

    Also funny that they threw in the assertion that decoupling of immigration enforcement with local policing would ease tensions between communities and local LE. Keep moving, don't linger on this part, or you might notice the agenda behind the words...

    It's hard to argue against better training, probably the main problem is agreeing with those picking the training on what actually constitutes "better training." How to use a battering ram, for instance, is probably not what the community would consider better training. Getting tighter groups with full auto fire from an M4 would probably also not make the community's list. A class on constitutional rights, on the other hand, is something that probably most LE could benefit from.

    Improved oversight would be good. Body cameras could certainly be a component to this. It's a tool that can be leveraged to provide accountability, which is a significant part of oversight, no?
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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Body cameras can reduce bad conduct on the part of the officers, and (probably even more often) reduce unfounded complaints from suspects. But in the end, if the laws being enforce are offensive to the population/society, the resentment is not going to go away, even if the rate of police brutality drops to 0.
    Yes. Must agree on this.
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    10 limitations of body cams you need to know for your protection an article from force Science Institute (http://www.forcescience.org/whoweare.html):

    http://www.forcescience.org/bodycams.pdf

    for your reading pleasure...

    sidebar: I tried to enroll in one of their weeklong force seminars as a civilian and was told no, it is for law enforcement personnel only as I wasn't talking to someone in authority I dropped the quest I was about to launch by asking what do you believe you have to hide from the civilian sector that only LE's need to know?

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 03-10-2015 at 08:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Dump cop unions and many of the issues will disappear overnight.
    And qualified immunity.

    Add also, full liability, to be paid and shared by officer and department/office alike, and NOT BY TAXPAYERS. More like malpractice insurance for doctors. And the premiums should be just as high, only lowered based on officer experience AND LEVEL OF EDUCATION.
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    Force Institute, their "analysis" falls apart, in my view, when a situation, such as the South Carolina state trooper shoots a dude for complying with his command. That dash cam was all the "evidence" that was needed to take somewhat appropriate action against that cop's unjustified and unlawful acts. Force Institute...

    Time stamping? A 12 y/o kid is shot ~2 seconds after a cop makes contact. Force Institute...

    Force Institute clearly has no regard for cops being trained and compelled to do what we are, by law in almost all cases, to do. Observe, process, then act on what we observe and process...in the hopes we got it right. Nope, cops react only, sometimes with nothing more than what they think might happen, not reacting to what is actually happening before their very eyes. Force Institute...

    The Force Institute will toss out the throw away platitude..."We certainly do not condone unlawful cop behavior..."
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Force Institute, their "analysis" falls apart, in my view, when a situation, such as the South Carolina state trooper shoots a dude for complying with his command. That dash cam was all the "evidence" that was needed to take somewhat appropriate action against that cop's unjustified and unlawful acts. Force Institute...

    Time stamping? A 12 y/o kid is shot ~2 seconds after a cop makes contact. Force Institute...

    Force Institute clearly has no regard for cops being trained and compelled to do what we are, by law in almost all cases, to do. Observe, process, then act on what we observe and process...in the hopes we got it right. Nope, cops react only, sometimes with nothing more than what they think might happen, not reacting to what is actually happening before their very eyes. Force Institute...

    The Force Institute will toss out the throw away platitude..."We certainly do not condone unlawful cop behavior..."
    Don't forget the NM police officers charged AFTER a state trooper turned over evidence of one of the officers bragging about shooting the victim in the nuts. BEFORE he actually did it. Without the dash cam it would have been the troopers words against the officers. And we know how that turns out.
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    A link to the story Wolf is talking about.
    http://www.kob.com/article/stories/s...l#.VQBz84ZHbCQ
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Interesting meme someone posted, seeing how often it's their opinion of what's legal or not. IOW, 'not a Law Enforcement Officer, but an OEO'

    The institutes and seminars will then be directed on ways to 'stay safe' from body cam evidence, including such topics as:

    o "Accidentally driving through a car wash with the windows down, and ways to use bags of rice if that happens"

    o "Playing with...er, testing your taser on electronic devices to assure they're not vulnerable to EMF..."

    o "The real cost to your department of losing your body cam in a struggle"

    o "How police dogs can eat your body cam if you give the wrong command, and how to retrain them"

    o "How to prevent the BG from accidentally shooting your body cam right off your shirt"

    (just a little rainy Wed instructional info)

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Interesting meme someone posted, seeing how often it's their opinion of what's legal or not. IOW, 'not a Law Enforcement Officer, but an OEO'

    The institutes and seminars will then be directed on ways to 'stay safe' from body cam evidence, including such topics as:

    o "Accidentally driving through a car wash with the windows down, and ways to use bags of rice if that happens"

    o "Playing with...er, testing your taser on electronic devices to assure they're not vulnerable to EMF..."

    o "The real cost to your department of losing your body cam in a struggle"

    o "How police dogs can eat your body cam if you give the wrong command, and how to retrain them"

    o "How to prevent the BG from accidentally shooting your body cam right off your shirt"

    (just a little rainy Wed instructional info)
    All of which are blown out of the water the first time a private citizen with his or her own body cam records the subterfuge. With over 60% of the American public with video-capable cell phones, the cops aren't going to get away with very much. If the cops wanna play 1984, we got 'em outnumbered about 500 to 1 on that front, as well.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Garner is dead for selling smokes by the single and his death is recorded from start to finish. Nope, the video is what the cops say it is no matter who took it. The institution we may have a issue with is the same institution we need to conduct a investigation of themselves.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Garner is dead for selling smokes by the single and his death is recorded from start to finish. Nope, the video is what the cops say it is no matter who took it. The institution we may have a issue with is the same institution we need to conduct a investigation of themselves.
    Yea, but the video didn't tell the whole story...

    It reminds me of the quote from the movie Josey Wales, something along the lines of when he does not like somebody they are not around long. The rest of the story we did not see was that the police really didn't like Garner.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 03-23-2015 at 10:23 AM.
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    "Putting more body cameras on police will not improve the relationship between law enforcement and the communities they oversee, according to a presidential task force report."

    Forgive me for asking, but by what right do LEOs think their job is to "oversee" a community...

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    It's just a leedle teeney tiny Freudian slip showing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Custodian View Post
    And qualified immunity.

    Add also, full liability, to be paid and shared by officer and department/office alike, and NOT BY TAXPAYERS. More like malpractice insurance for doctors. And the premiums should be just as high, only lowered based on officer experience AND LEVEL OF EDUCATION.
    +1 Enough said....

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    Quote Originally Posted by BriKuz View Post
    "Putting more body cameras on police will not improve the relationship between law enforcement and the communities they oversee, according to a presidential task force report."

    Forgive me for asking, but by what right do LEOs think their job is to "oversee" a community...
    Yeah, that's an ooops. It reflects Obama's totalitarian aspirations through his stormtroopers.
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