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How far does it go?

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Bikenut

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Do you know of a court case with both an attorney and a client stupid enough to bring a case with regards to the second amendment and nukes?

Citations if you would please?
You are the one asserting that the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to WMDs which means it is up to you to prove your assertion... it is not up to me to disprove it. And again, condescension has no place in a discussion about rights.

Plainly put... you said the 2nd Amendment refers only to the people being able to keep those arms the people can bear so please provide cites and/or links to support it.

If you cannot provide cites and/or links to your assertion that the word "bear" in "keep and bear" ties what can be kept to only what can be borne then your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment's wording of "keep and bear" is your opinion.

Nothing wrong with having that opinion but if you wish for folks to take your opinion as fact then citing and/or linking to factual sources will be needed.
 

J_dazzle23

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So why does the government have them?

They then are violating the rights of THE PEOPLE.

Why is the government researching biologicals that if released can be WMD's. Aren't bio and chem weapons banned?

The conversation should be reversed. If we can't own a weapon, then the government can't own the weapon. Simple solution.
So just to add- even if we determine that wmd are violating the rights of the people by gov. Having them, now we get into the question of "are other wmd - owning countries going to play by those rules, and is there good reason for the government to have them in this instance ?

Sorry to open that can of worms.

So just to clarify the OP- are we effectively drawing a line a nukes?
 

WalkingWolf

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You are the one asserting that the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to WMDs which means it is up to you to prove your assertion... it is not up to me to disprove it. And again, condescension has no place in a discussion about rights.

Plainly put... you said the 2nd Amendment refers only to the people being able to keep those arms the people can bear so please provide cites and/or links to support it.

If you cannot provide cites and/or links to your assertion that the word "bear" in "keep and bear" ties what can be kept to only what can be borne then your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment's wording of "keep and bear" is your opinion.

Nothing wrong with having that opinion but if you wish for folks to take your opinion as fact then citing and/or linking to factual sources will be needed.

A nuke cannot be used for fending off tyranny without violating the rights of THE PEOPLE! The second speaks clearly and needs no citations for this type of lunacy. The WHOLE second amendment is the citation. YOU just do not want to acknowledge it probably due to some fantasy of owning a nuke.

Anybody who wants to own a nuke is a terrorist, anybody who thinks it is covered by the second is in need of professional help. You are going to get little support from sane people.
 

J_dazzle23

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A nuke cannot be used for fending off tyranny without violating the rights of THE PEOPLE! The second speaks clearly and needs no citations for this type of lunacy. The WHOLE second amendment is the citation. YOU just do not want to acknowledge it probably due to some fantasy of owning a nuke.

Anybody who wants to own a nuke is a terrorist, anybody who thinks it is covered by the second is in need of professional help. You are going to get little support from sane people.
Damn. I have about 2000 square miles of desert right down the road.....I've always wanted one! ;) lol
 
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Bikenut

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.............
Originally Posted by WalkingWolf

A nuke cannot be used for fending off tyranny without violating the rights of THE PEOPLE! The second speaks clearly and needs no citations for this type of lunacy. The WHOLE second amendment is the citation. YOU just do not want to acknowledge it probably due to some fantasy of owning a nuke.

Anybody who wants to own a nuke is a terrorist, anybody who thinks it is covered by the second is in need of professional help. You are going to get little support from sane people.
I get it... you have resorted to insult and ridicule hoping to put me on the defensive because you do not have anything to support your claim that the 2nd Amendment wording of "keep" is limited to what the people can "bear".

Have a nice day.
 
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WalkingWolf

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The case should be brought to ban nukes period.

This whole nuke argument is obtuse.

Without research I believe there are groups that wish to ban nukes. The problem is they are not governments, and because of governments run by nut cases with nukes it makes it damn near impossible. What is clear we do not need more nukes. And there is no purpose of private citizens owning nukes as a deterrent to tyranny, the purpose of the second.

As far as citations all he has to do is find a 2A attorney that will take his case. That is if he can find one that will stop laughing. One thing is for sure is that expressing an interest to own a nuke on the internet probably will earn a place on several watch lists.

Considering that owning a nuke is illegal, and lunacy, I am surprised this thread has lasted as long as it has.
 
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Bikenut

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Without research I believe there are groups that wish to ban nukes. The problem is they are not governments, and because of governments run by nut cases with nukes it makes it damn near impossible. What is clear we do not need more nukes. And there is no purpose of private citizens owning nukes as a deterrent to tyranny, the purpose of the second.

As far as citations all he has to do is find a 2A attorney that will take his case. That is if he can find one that will stop laughing. One thing is for sure is that expressing an interest to own a nuke on the internet probably will earn a place on several watch lists.

Considering that owning a nuke is illegal, and lunacy, I am surprised this thread has lasted as long as it has.
As far as I can see only one person expressed an interest in having a nuke and it wasn't me.
 
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Bikenut

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Then why are you being so obtuse over the subject? Do you want a nuke? If not you are being a troll.
I have never said I wanted a nuke nor do I want a nuke or any other weapon of mass destruction... but it is nice to know that when you can't support your assertions you resort to character assassination.

As for being obtuse I am merely asking you to cite and/or link to sources that support your claim that the word "bear" in the 2nd Amendment restricts the arms the people can "keep".
 

J_dazzle23

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I have never said I wanted a nuke nor do I want a nuke or any other weapon of mass destruction... but it is nice to know that when you can't support your assertions you resort to character assassination.

As for being obtuse I am merely asking you to cite and/or link to sources that support your claim that the word "bear" in the 2nd Amendment restricts the arms the people can "keep".

You are isolating this to only the second amendment, I fear.

Question: if you have a nuclear warhead hot and ready at the switch of a button to deploy in the USA, or by using said nuke, would you be violating the rights of other people?
 

utbagpiper

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Incorrect. Corpses were the only biological weapon available. Warships, cannon, and explosives were available WMDs of the day.

No, these are NOT WMDs, not even in the 18th century. Cannons, explosives, and warships can all be used rather discriminating. Even in the late 1700s, a warship could pretty reliably drop an exploding cannon ball into an single fort, or within a city block or so. Total blast range was measured in yards from the impact. Washington parked his cannon in Cambridge, aimed them across the river at the British fortifications in Boston, without those cannon posing any threat at all to the American Colonists in Cambridge, or even a couple of blocks in either direction away from his point of aim.

Nukes, Chemical, and Biological weapons do have anywhere near that level of containment.

It seems you do not understand what a WMD actually is.

My continued and unanswered requests for cites and/or links is to get to facts instead of opinions or beliefs.

Well then you will be disappointed. My apologies, you're not being obtuse. It seems you simply do not understand what facts are. T

here are no "facts" to answer your question. You can have the opinions, logic, and reasoning of WalkingWolf, Utbagpiper, and Marshaul, or you can have the opinions of Justices Roberts and Kennedy, or you can have the opinions, logic, and arguments of Madison, Hamilton, and Patrick Henry.

There are no "facts" except as we may assert a "fact" as to which opinion expressed by which individual at some point in time.

Undoubtedly, some opinions will be far more legally binding than others. Some will carry more weight in terms of what the framers intended. But at the end of the day, all are opinions.

Yes... that is the question asked in the OP. Where is that line drawn? Does the government violate the 2nd Amendment if it limits what arms the people are allowed to have? So far there have been opinions and beliefs offered as answers.

There have also been some pretty strong logical arguments regarding impacts to others' rights, whether WMDs actually provide any protection against a tyrannical government, and what we might discern about original intent lacking specific writings from the framers on a subject that would not have warranted comment from them. Every weapon common to the soldier was clearly included in the protections of the 2nd amendment. But I can find no evidence that anyone even considered on the possibility that someone would want to, much less have a right to, maintain biological weapons. The risk is clearly too large while the benefit too small.

Nope... attempting to put me on the defensive to disprove what was said won't work. You guys said it... you guys defend it.

We have defended it. You simply don't accept the defense. Which is fine. Nutty in this case. But fine.

The problem is that you don't seem interested in engaging in any real debate or discussion, you simply want someone to provide "facts" where there are none, citations that don't exist, or to provide some level of proof that even you can't define.

And so with that last bit are you defending the government limiting what arms the people are allowed to have?

Oh... and kindly do not cleverly wordsmith in an attempt to imply a diminishing or demeaning slant to my postings with references to making an anarchist anti government argument when I am most certainly not doing any such thing.

I am defending the proper ability of government to limit possession of items that pose grave risks to the rights of all of humanity and that are not protected by the 2nd amendment.

Are you claiming there is some right for individuals to own chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons?

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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A better thing would be to explain how not having an item that the government is using to violate the rights of your fellow innocent citizens somehow makes it better for the citizens that are left under the control of the government that used items the citizens didn't have.

That has been explained, repeatedly. Please go read the thread again if you missed it.

Something better than "I believe" or "I think" would be nice.

That has also been provided in terms of logical arguments for original intent, a fine discussion of how my right to own weapons cannot infringe others rights to be free from some unreasonably high level of risk of unjust death or harm, and some great linguistic analysis. You've accepted none of this. Indeed, have refused to even engage in much real debate.

And now you can't tell me whose opinions on the matter would be persuassive to you.

Forgive me if I sense a desire for perpetually moving the goal posts.

If your desire has been to push how far a defense for limits on the 2nd amendment can go, I think you've reached the limits of what we can offer without resorting to court precedence that most here would find objectionable in one regard or another.

Can you concede that the black letter language can be read as protecting two separate individual rights?

I fully conceded that in the very same breath that I asked you whether you could concede that the language protected a single, linked right. Did you really miss that?

Now, do you intend to answer any questions, to engage in any real debate? If not, I'm about done with you.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Good point, but I am back to other weapons like biological and chemical- which are or could be a bit of a grey area. What about an EMP emitter?

these could theoretically be used against a tyrannical gov.

But there is a much higher risk to citizens than...perhaps, an M1 Abrams tank.

Seems like there is grey here. And you know of course, im playing devils advocate here. But it's worthwhile discussion.

Yes, it's been a very worthwhile discussion. I'm especially grateful to WalkingWolf for his lingustical argument. First time I've ever read this one and it works very well. I've also found Marshaul's insights into violating the rights of others to be rather well stated.

And your comments have been thoughtful.

To the meet of your question, I think biological and chemical weapons are even more problematic than nukes. To a first order, the blast zone of a nuke is well known and can be controlled. It is large, but known. Ignoring the radiation, it is just a really big explosive. But chemical and biologicals? No real control.

The wind shifted after you launched. Sucks for your innocent neighbors downwind. An infected soldier wanders into a church meeting or other large social gathering. You can't control who gets killed.

State laws properly ban the use of spring guns or other booby traps. Deadly force is not to be used semi-randomly against some stupid kid whose only crime is simple trespass across your field. Nor even against the starving hiker who breaks into your unattended cabin looking for a little food and warmth.

WMDs make the unattended booby trap look downright reasonable by comparison.

And yes, the risk is huge.

A gun or ammo left unattended for a few years or decades degrades into a harmless mass of rust and powder that probably won't ignite.

I live one county over from what used to be the largest stockpile of chemical weapons in the nation. About 15 years ago, the feds built an incinerator to destroy the old mustard gas and other weapons on site rather trying to move them. Way too dangerous to move them.

A canister of mustard gas left unattended in a bunker for a few decades doesn't decompose into something harmless. The shell casing rusts and if it fails, fully active mustard gas escapes. Very similar things happen with Nukes and biologicals.

With a gun and ammo, all I have to do not to seriously endanger my neighbors is, NOTHING. If I do nothing, there is almost zero risk to my neighbors.

But with WMDs, if I fail to maintain them, if I hide them and then die and nobody knows they are there, they become ticking time bombs that will go off eventually. Eventually, the casing gives way and the deadly stuff inside escapes. You won't get a nuclear explosion in such cases, the biological or chemical agent won't be spread by a carefully triggered blast, but really deadly stuff will escape. Maybe into the air next door to a grade school. Maybe into the ground water used for city culinary supplies. Maybe it is just a few neighbors who wake up dead. But in any case, the risk to others' rights is fundamentally higher and different.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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I meant if they launch, I will launch.

I know exactly what you meant. Against whom are you going to launch? The silos in Ohio, surrounded by innocent, fellow citizens? The Pentagon in Virginia/DC surrounded by fellow, innocent civilians? NORAD in Colorado, surrounded by your fellow innocent civilians?

If the US government were to ever use WMDs against we the people, you can't "launch" against the government without launching against the same, we the people. Think about this for a few moments.

So you are saying the government is more responsible than me? Let's start by comparing balanced check books as a first test.

The world is full of rich men who can't maintain a marriage because they can't maintain fidelity. Conversely, lots of sexually faithful men can't balance a checkbook. Responsibility in one area may suggest, but does not guarantee responsibility in another.

Moreover, unlike guns and ammo, WMDs have to be properly maintained or they become a hazard. Put a gun on the top shelf and do nothing with it for a few decades it will never pose a risk to your neighbors. It can sit on that shelf while the house crumbles around it and never pose a risk. Fifty or sixty years in a special bunker, in the arid Utah desert and military shells full of our nation's chemical weapons were so degraded nobody dared move them. We can ship high level nuclear waste safely. But nobody dared move this stuff. It was incinerated on site. Took a decade to safely complete.

And the proper maintenance of such weapons isn't a one man job. It requires expertise in chemical, biological, or nuclear materials, plus explosive expertise, plus electronics expertise. Not to mention significant physical security. When your 3 year old gets a hold of an improperly stored gun, most often it is no worse than a personal or family tragedy. What does a very small, 10 kiloton tactical nuke do your neighborhood if it is accidentally detonated?

While nothing is perfect, government has put in place various protocols and safeguards to prevent any one person from detonating a WMD. It is surmised that even if a president went nuts, military command has some way to countermand his order and avoid nuclear war. How do you presume to duplicate these safeguards as a private citizen?

I agree all would be better off without them, however, if they have them, I should be able to have them.

We might well be better off if the didn't exist. Since they do exist, a nation needs enough to discourage other nations from using them. MAD, or mexican standoff is not a great situation. But it is better than being defenseless against a preemptive Soviet strike or threat thereof.

But that doesn't mean any private citizen should have them. They cannot be used defensively against a tyrannical government, an invading army, nor domestic riots. WMDs are fundamentally different than conventional arms and even crew served weapons. We are not talking the difference between 60 and 600 rounds minute, or 50 vs 90 caliber. Fundamental differences and frankly, anyone who claims the 2nd amendment protects some right to own WMDs is undermining all social, political, and judicial support for the 2nd amendment protecting ANY right to keep and bear arms at all.

A nice theoretical discussion of the limits of the 2nd amendment is enlightening and fun. To actually assert a right to own nukes, not as devil's advocate, not to push the limits of debate, but to actually believe it, is probably more damaging to real RKBA than anything Bloomberg could come up with. "See, the folks actually think they should get to own nukes. Clearly they are equally nuts when they talk about walking around our neighborhoods with guns."

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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As for being obtuse I am merely asking you to cite and/or link to sources that support your claim that the word "bear" in the 2nd Amendment restricts the arms the people can "keep".

So just for fun, can you provide the citations that prove the 1st amendment ban on any law "prohibiting the free exercise" of religion allows government to criminalize human sacrifice or jihad against non-believers?

How can we possibly have laws against libel or slander with bans on laws prohibiting free speech and freedom of the press?

What makes that any different than the 2nd amendment?

Charles
 

twoskinsonemanns

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How many times shall we go over this, the sole purpose of the second is in that first part of the second amendment. It is not about hunting, it is not about self defense from people, it is not about shooting guns in the air on New Years or the 4th of July, and it most certainly is NOT ABOUT COLLECTING, ESPECIALLY COLLECTING OF ARMS THAT KILL AND MAIM INDISCRIMINATELY.

It is about that part in red, keeping is integral to bearing arms, one cannot bear them unless they have them. WMD's have absolutely no use for the first part of the second amendment, and the keeping of them violates the rights of THE PEOPLE.

If you want a nuke, I guess you are just out of luck, because I doubt anybody with common sense will side with you. As UB has said you are intentionally being obtuse.

You're right about the reason. But the reason does not in anyway affect the definition of arms.
The directive is the RKBA shall not be infringed. The reason is completely and totally moot.
With this failed reasoning you can support infringing on the rights of people to bear any arms that aren't specifically used for "the reason".
 

WalkingWolf

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You're right about the reason. But the reason does not in anyway affect the definition of arms.
The directive is the RKBA shall not be infringed. The reason is completely and totally moot.
With this failed reasoning you can support infringing on the rights of people to bear any arms that aren't specifically used for "the reason".

The second amendment is not a two part amendment, or otherwise we would have had 11 amendments. The right to keep and bear arms had a specific purpose, and that purpose was very clear at the dawn of our country. There is absolutely no coverage for weapons that would be used against "the people". Which is what the whole bill of rights at that time was written for. It would have been dumb logic to write a constitution to protect the people while allowing a single person to eliminate the people. Without the reason we would not have the right, or they would have left it out.
 

OC for ME

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You are isolating this to only the second amendment, I fear.

Question: if you have a nuclear warhead hot and ready at the switch of a button to deploy in the USA, or by using said nuke, would you be violating the rights of other people?
Idunno...not using it, if nobody knows...nope, no rights violation. Law violation? :rolleyes: Launch and kill them...yeah, rights violation(s).
 
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