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Thread: To wookie or not to wookie? Is it a valid comparison?

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    To wookie or not to wookie? Is it a valid comparison?

    http://www.ma-rooned.com/2015/03/to-...e-that-is.html

    Many of us have suffered through the same sort of WalMart "show me your receipt" drama at a local big-box gun store.

    The response to such "requests" to produce a receipt seem about equally divided between "Fine. Here it is. Now leave me alone." and "If you are accusing me of shoplifting arrest me or call the cops. Otherwise get out of my face." Let us just say that the notion of which is the more prevalent, let alone "proper" response is still up for discussion.

    The "their house, their rules" viewpoint is valid. How many are really willing to give up going to "their house" because of "their rules" - be it WalMart or that big-box local gun store or anywhere else?

    But to call declining to show the receipt Wookie-ism"? The reasons offered about why they want to check the receipt are wonderful works of imagination - especially with UPC inventory control.

    Full disclosure: I am a barbarian. I politely decline and perhaps secretly hope they will detain me. So far only one place (local big-box gun store) has physically tried to block me (but did not actually lay hands on me or say "You are under arrest" which their loss prevention weenie has the legal authority to do) from leaving, and I no longer darken their cash register with my money. So far, everywhere else has said something like "Thank you for shopping at __ and have a nice day."

    stay safe.
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  2. #2
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    I'm solidly in the "their house, their rules" camp when it comes to showing a receipt.

    They are not the government and (ignoring what I consider to be improper and unconstitutional "anti-discrimination" laws), our interactions with each other are mutually voluntary and beneficial. I have zero use for the kind of scum who engage in theft and so have no heartburn doing a bit to help others avoid being victims of theft.

    I know that a lot--maybe even most--theft is from employees, not customers. But I know theft from customers isn't zero so I'll not deliberately make life hard on those who are doing what little can be done these days to discourage and prevent theft out the front door.

    If I see someone prowling around my neighbor's house, I will call it in and otherwise attempt to assist my neighbor. I view a retail business no differently.

    No, I wouldn't consent to a strip search, nor of emptying my pockets. There are lines.

    But if a store employee wants to see my receipt on my way out, I've got no heartburn at all with that. Others' lines are in different places.

    I notice that some stores are constructed so that you are more or less forced to walk through a register line to exit. I actually appreciate the more open design of Walmarts and other stores where I can wander around and then exit the same doors I came in, without having to squeeze past a register.

    Anyway, my opinion. Worth what you paid for it.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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  3. #3
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    As I posted on his blog:

    In my world-view, the door guy stopping me and asking for my receipt to determine that I'm not a thief is the same as a cop stopping me on the street, with no RAS or PC, to check to see if I have any outstanding warrants, or if I'm openly carrying, to make sure I'm not a felon or other kind of "prohibited" person. When we give in to the small infringements, the larger infringements are sure to follow.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    The way I see it, once I've paid for the items, they're my property, and I can do whatever the hell I want with them, and my person, as I see fit. LP can only stop me with evidence of crime.

    I was stopped in a Southern Walmart and asked for a receipt. Now, when I'm buying food, expendables, or other items I don't expect to possibly return, I don't care too much about a receipt. As a result, on this particular occasion I wasn't paying much attention to what happened to my receipt, and, somehow, by the time I'd reached the door I'd lost my receipt. Since I wasn't paying attention, I didn't know whether I'd dropped it, or it was underneath a bunch of food items in a bag, or what.

    At any rate, one I realized I couldn't find my receipt, I informed the door-person that I'm under no obligation to prove my innocence, and that I would be leaving with my property. Nobody stopped me.

    "Their house, their rules": my ass. They're free to trespass me off the premises, but they simply have no right to detain me in any fashion without evidence that I've stolen. And, of course, a cart full of bagged items is pretty good evidence I've paid all by itself.
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-05-2015 at 01:59 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Once there is a money transfer I have little use for them...until I need to return.

    Store Dude: Sir, may I see your receipt?
    Me: Have a nice day to you too Sir.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Walmart posts no rules on the door to notify of "their rules". They can certainly stop a lawful citizen from entering, but they CANNOT stop them from leaving.

    I have been through this, and was threatened by a LP at the Walmart in Spring Lake. It resulted in an apology, an investigation, and hopefully the firing of the LP in question. The manager informed me that she could not fire him or she would. LP employees apparently at Wally World have their own supervisors to answer to. She invited me back with a gift card, I respectfully declined. I have not been in that Walmart since.
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    WalMart again? How many shoes must drop before the message is clear.
    1. The People of WalMart.com
    2. Gun unfriendly employees if not policy
    3. Overweening LP drones
    Seems clear to me, fool me once and shame on you, fool me twice and shame on me, fool me thrice and ...
    Last edited by Nightmare; 03-05-2015 at 02:12 PM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Locally the greeters/receipt checkers disappeared for a while. I think partially over this issue.

    The greeters seem to be making a return, but no one in my recent experiences is asking for a receipt as I exit. That pleases me.

    I belong to BJ's, a membership club, where showing your receipt is mandatory. One particular checker at the exit has gotten to know me pretty well and approves of my carrying.

    He's said with a smile, "You were the topic of discussions and questions today."

    "Really, replied I, were any of them attractive females?"
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    In my world-view, the door guy stopping me and asking for my receipt to determine that I'm not a thief is the same as a cop stopping me on the street, with no RAS or PC, to check to see if I have any outstanding warrants, or if I'm openly carrying, to make sure I'm not a felon or other kind of "prohibited" person. When we give in to the small infringements, the larger infringements are sure to follow.
    I should think we, of all people, would perfectly understand the difference between government agents and private citizens.

    And there is a reason that slippery slope is a logical fallacy. Is there any evidence, anywhere in this nation, of receipt checking leading to something (more) offensive? Government tends to expand power given the chance. But in 35 years of shopping, I've never seen stores do anything more than ask for a receipt at the door. Well, that and start to screw up their credit card security, but that is a whole different issue. But frankly, a much more important issue to me than receipt checking at the door. I strictly avoid store credit cards.


    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    They're free to trespass me off the premises,
    And if stores actually took to trespassing those who refused to show receipts, or were simply difficult to deal with, I wonder how long before the libertarians and anarchists would be crying out for government to force the stores into unwanted interactions.


    Now, in contrast, the following two positions I find completely respectable:

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    She invited me back with a gift card, I respectfully declined. I have not been in that Walmart since.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    WalMart again? .... Seems clear to me, fool me once and shame on you, fool me twice and shame on me, fool me thrice and ...
    Exactly. If a store's policies, practices, or services offend me, I don't take some perverse joy in being difficult, I simply withdraw from the association and don't engage in it in the future. I don't personally find a request to check a receipt to be offensive, so that isn't any reason for me to stop patronizing a business.

    But if a receipt check does offend someone, methinks the mature, civil thing to do is to take one's business elsewhere. It isn't like we don't have lots of options including countless on-line options for shopping these days.

    A simple solution.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Locally the greeters/receipt checkers disappeared for a while. I think partially over this issue.

    The greeters seem to be making a return, but no one in my recent experiences is asking for a receipt as I exit. That pleases me.

    I belong to BJ's, a membership club, where showing your receipt is mandatory. One particular checker at the exit has gotten to know me pretty well and approves of my carrying.

    He's said with a smile, "You were the topic of discussions and questions today."

    "Really, replied I, were any of them attractive females?"
    This has to violate some rule. I asked the wife what rule.

    Grapeshot, you are in big trouble.

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    This has to violate some rule. I asked the wife what rule.

    Grapeshot, you are in big trouble.
    No trouble, I am in a very solid relationship. Just looking out for my friends who aren't so lucky.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I "belong" to that evil, evil warehouse retailer Costco. I receive my membership through my work, so I don't pay for it, nor did I sign any membership contract. But I submit to their receipt checking. It's not like they really check everything.

    For other places that ask for my receipt, if I'm not in a hurry, or it's not buried in the bag somewhere, I might let them check. Usually avoiding eye contact and body language keeps them from asking. Also, buying stuff online at cheaper prices.

    If I just came out of the check-out section, what reasonable suspicion would they have to inspect my items? If they have a loss problem because the checkers aren't getting everything, that's an internal problem, not a customer problem.

    I always "threaten" my wife with if the opportunity arose when the alarm goes off after walking through the door, I'll either start sprinting for the car or drop the bag and run. I always get "the look."

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    And if stores actually took to trespassing those who refused to show receipts, or were simply difficult to deal with, I wonder how long before the libertarians and anarchists would be crying out for government to force the stores into unwanted interactions.


    Forever, because this is another straw man you've created out of whole cloth.

    I'd also love to know what you find dis"respectable" about my position. I didn't argue that government should force stores to abandon such policies. I merely opined that these policies have little to no weight because of the reality that stores have no authority to detain (without evidence) folks who are allowed free entry onto the premises.

    ETA: Can someone explain the whole "wookie" thing to me?
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-05-2015 at 04:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    [ ... ] ETA: Can someone explain the whole "wookie" thing to me?
    Click bait for the credulous. "Duuh, what'd he mean by that?"
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post

    Forever, because this is another straw man you've created out of whole cloth.
    Whole cloth? I figure your support for anti-discrimination laws for various minority groups ought to count as some kind foundation on which to make a little light-hearted poke. After all, if disagreeable people find they can't get service anywhere, what are they to do? Submit to police state tactics at the hands of large retailers?

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I'd also love to know what you find dis"respectable" about my position.
    I did not use the term "disrespectable" toward you or your position. I simply pointed out that I can respect WalkingWolf and Nightmare's position. If a store has a policy so objectionable that one has to give grief to the employee whose job it is enforce that policy, the respectable course of action is to stop patronizing the store. I can understand being put out and non-cooperative the first time one learns of the policy. But henceforth, the respectable thing to do is to take your business elsewhere.


    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I didn't argue that government should force stores to abandon such policies. I merely opined that these policies have little to no weight because of the reality that stores have no authority to detain (without evidence) folks who are allowed free entry onto the premises.
    And a polite man doesn't do the bare minimum that is required by law. If a store is known to have a policy that is objectionable, the respectable course of action is take your cash elsewhere, or to work with owners/managers to peacefully and voluntarily change the policy, not to continue looking for chances for conflict.

    The only reason they don't have authority to detain you, is because government so mandates. In a purely voluntary society, they'd be free to post whatever conditions they like for entry and you'd either comply or not be welcome on premises. It is the law, enforced by government, that allows the anarchist to thumb his nose at the store's policy of asking for receipts on the way out. To see an anarchist falling back on that is ironic and entertaining to me.

    And don't take offense at that. We all have certain inconsistencies. So it isn't like I'm accusing you of some moral failing.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member Liberty-or-Death's Avatar
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    If I hand you my receipt, I expect a full refund. Do you really want it?
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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post


    Forever, because this is another straw man you've created out of whole cloth.

    I'd also love to know what you find dis"respectable" about my position. I didn't argue that government should force stores to abandon such policies. I merely opined that these policies have little to no weight because of the reality that stores have no authority to detain (without evidence) folks who are allowed free entry onto the premises.

    ETA: Can someone explain the whole "wookie" thing to me?
    Curious how he can bring up and attack libertarians as a group completely unprovoked and it seems okay. But if he doesn't like a thread involving cops all he has to do is say the magic words "cop block" and the mods rush to close the thread like they had puppet strings.

    Anyway walmart is the only place around here that I know of that does this. I hate walmart so admittedly I only go into when I have to (maybe 3-4 times a year). Every time I've gone when a greeter was present I was asked for my receipt. I usually ignore them or it I've made incidental eye contact I say "no." It's never gone beyond that. No second request or someone follow me out. Of course if I did get trespassed I really wouldn't mind. Walmart is like the DMV I always feel dirty after leaving it.
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  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Curious how he can bring up and attack libertarians as a group completely unprovoked and it seems okay. But if he doesn't like a thread involving cops all he has to do is say the magic words "cop block" and the mods rush to close the thread like they had puppet strings.

    --snipped--
    I really don't think you intended to insult the Administration or Moderators, but that is too close to doing the same thing.

    If someone points out something a Mod has otherwise missed, that is not a bad thing. We are all limited by the sheer volume and time constraints, so the help is appreciated.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I really don't think you intended to insult the Administration or Moderators, but that is too close to doing the same thing.
    Indeed not. Pardon my ill-conceived analogy.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Indeed not. Pardon my ill-conceived analogy.
    You are fine.

    We are not a pack of wild hounds either
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    But Wookiees, that's a different matter.
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