Utah brings back the firing squad

rickyray9 said:

Penn and Teller explain my stance on the Death Penalty better than I ever could. It's very entertaining and informative and I encourage everyone to watch it.

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Entertaining yes. Informative, not so much.

Simply an entertaining rehashing of the philosophical objection to capital punishment. "Killing a man to prove killing is wrong makes no sense." So why do we incarcerate kidnappers?

The death penalty demonstrates society's view about how serious certain crimes are; how completely intolerable by society

The death penalty prevents the most dangerous criminals from ever harming anyone else, including other inmates (who haven't been sentenced to death, rape, or assault as part of their punishment) and guards.

The death penalty provides retributive justice for the most heinous of crimes.

The current list of crimes eligible for capital punishment is actually woefully short. A person doesn't accidentally do something in this State or nation that gets him on the wrong end of the capital conviction these days. In Utah, the only crime that will draw the death penalty is aggravated murder. This requires murder of multiple victims, the murder to have been committed in particularly heinous (as opposed to mundane) or tortuous manner, murder for monetary gain, as part of a hijacking, or similar aggravating circumstances.

The State of Utah has executed a grand total of 7 men since SCOTUS permitted executions to resume in the 70s. This includes two of the "Hi Fi" killers/torturers and a serial murderer.

Only two of those executed had a single victim. One of those raped and strangled an 11 year old girl. The other stabbed to death a man who stopped to give him a ride, then assumed his identity.

There is no credible doubt whatsoever about the guilt of any of the 7 men executed. I cannot find a single reference of any death row inmate in Utah ever being exonerated. Consider there have been only 7 men executed since the 70s, and only 52 in all of our State's history (including our time as a territory), the odds of a 0.5% error happening here and not being discovered are rather low.

In the absence of credible evidence that UTAH has a problem with executing innocent people, then any discussion of capital punishment in Utah can probably dispense with such arguments.

Charles

J_dazzle23 said:

I am fairly sold on the idea of capital punishment- in theory.

My point is that it is a fantastic tool to show the mistakes that we make in the name of justice.

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Fully agreed, and that is part of my argument. Having it makes us keenly aware of the need to avoid mistakes in the justice system.

J_dazzle23 said:

Just since we are both local, let's take the hifi murders in Ogden as an example. That one? I'll push the potassium or pull the trigger on them myself. I can honestly say that. Aside from any emotional statement, I feel no moral qualms about removing individuals like that from society.

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A grand total of 7 men have been executed in Utah since the 1970s.

Would you have serious qualms about pulling the trigger on any of them?

Gary Gillmore murdered two people over two days as part of a crime spree. He dropped all appeals and told the ACLU to butt out and stop trying to prevent his execution.

Dale Pierre and William Andrews tortured and killed three victims at the Hi Fi shop; one intended victim survived if I recall.

Arthur Bishop was a child molester and serial killer. Five young boys murdered at his hands. Confession, and regret for the crimes expressed as some of his last words.

John Taylor raped and strangled to death an 11 year old girl. He maintained his innocence but dropped appeals because of failing health and a desire not to die alone in his cell.

Joseph Parsons stabbed a man who stopped to give him a ride (quite possibly while the victim was asleep), then assumed his identity, even claiming he was his own victim after he was arrested. He claimed it was to fend off a homosexual advance, but no evidence of such an advance could be produced. There was some evidence that maybe Parsons was the homosexual making advances and was upset when those advances were rejected. Maybe just a simple theft of cars and credit cards and such. But a victim brutally murdered either way. Parson's had previously used a gun to car jack a taxi in Vegas. In addition to all the physical evidence, a full confession.

Ronnie Gardner murdered a man during a robbery attempt, and then murdered an attorney during an unsuccessful escape attempt during his trial.

Are there any of them that cause you any real pause? Not in a single case among these am I aware of any credible claims the convicted didn't commit the crimes as described; only efforts to avoid the death penalty for philosophical reasons.

J_dazzle23 said:

But when something is a life/death scenario, I don't think it's asking too much to want it right every single time. Is that realistic? Probably not. But it certainly needs improvement.

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Near as I can tell, Utah has had zero innocent men executed since the 70s. I cannot find a single man ever on Utah's death row to be exonerated. I think we're doing a perfect job so far of not executing innocent men. I wish we were so careful with non capital cases.

How do we improve on perfect?

Now, if Texas or Florida has problems they need to fix them. But Utah is a sovereign State and shouldn't be penalized for the mistakes of other States.

J_dazzle23 said:

Changing the method from one thing to another doesn't really do much imo. Cheaper for the bullet, though.

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And to clarify, this bill doesn't change the method. It simply provides the firing squad as an alternative if the needed drugs cannot be secured for lethal injection. The bill prevents European drug makers from undermining our justice system. We will respect their patents. And if we can't drugs that are court approved to provide a humane execution, we will use 4 bullets (and 1 blank).

Charles

utbagpiper said:

Fully agreed, and that is part of my argument. Having it makes us keenly aware of the need to avoid mistakes in the justice system.



A grand total of 7 men have been executed in Utah since the 1970s.

Would you have serious qualms about pulling the trigger on any of them?

Gary Gillmore murdered two people over two days as part of a crime spree. He dropped all appeals and told the ACLU to butt out and stop trying to prevent his execution.

Dale Pierre and William Andrews tortured and killed three victims at the Hi Fi shop; one intended victim survived if I recall.

Arthur Bishop was a child molester and serial killer. Five young boys murdered at his hands. Confession, and regret for the crimes expressed as some of his last words.

John Taylor raped and strangled to death an 11 year old girl. He maintained his innocence but dropped appeals because of failing health and a desire not to die alone in his cell.

Joseph Parsons stabbed a man who stopped to give him a ride (quite possibly while the victim was asleep), then assumed his identity, even claiming he was his own victim after he was arrested. He claimed it was to fend off a homosexual advance, but no evidence of such an advance could be produced. There was some evidence that maybe Parsons was the homosexual making advances and was upset when those advances were rejected. Maybe just a simple theft of cars and credit cards and such. But a victim brutally murdered either way. Parson's had previously used a gun to car jack a taxi in Vegas. In addition to all the physical evidence, a full confession.

Ronnie Gardner murdered a man during a robbery attempt, and then murdered an attorney during an unsuccessful escape attempt during his trial.

Are there any of them that cause you any real pause? Not in a single case among these am I aware of any credible claims the convicted didn't commit the crimes as described; only efforts to avoid the death penalty for philosophical reasons.



Near as I can tell, Utah has had zero innocent men executed since the 70s. I cannot find a single man ever on Utah's death row to be exonerated. I think we're doing a perfect job so far of not executing innocent men. I wish we were so careful with non capital cases.

How do we improve on perfect?

Now, if Texas or Florida has problems they need to fix them. But Utah is a sovereign State and shouldn't be penalized for the mistakes of other States.



And to clarify, this bill doesn't change the method. It simply provides the firing squad as an alternative if the needed drugs cannot be secured for lethal injection. The bill prevents European drug makers from undermining our justice system. We will respect their patents. And if we can't drugs that are court approved to provide a humane execution, we will use 4 bullets (and 1 blank).

Charles

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I think you just made the point.

If utah is 100%, why can't everyone else?

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J_dazzle23 said:

I think you just made the point.

If utah is 100%, why can't everyone else?

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I will leave them to figure out how to fix any problems they have.

But since Utah has demonstrated we do such a good job of avoiding errors against the innocent, we should look at expanding the crimes eligible for capital punishment to include various sexual crimes against children.

Charles

AFAIC they should include vehicular homicide while intoxicated. And whatever happened to death by hanging? Nothing cruel about that. And public execution is ideal, I feel.

But then I also have to ask, what about times the innocent are executed? Look at Tookie Williams, for example. Ok, he did it and he died. However, what if it turned out he was innocent? If a person that is executed is truly innocent, isn't it then murder? What then?

There are people that have been executed, even when it is pointed out the prosecution withheld evidence showing their innocence. Isn't that murder? Shouldn't those that commit such crimes also face the death penalty?