Mas Ayoob on OC - "Well, sorta maybe OK if ..."

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2015/03/10/open-carry-whats-your-take/

Open carry is the practice of wearing a presumably loaded firearm, visibly. It normally takes the form of a holstered handgun. It occasionally takes the form of someone carrying a rifle or shotgun into a restaurant, which has a history of causing restaurant chains to ban or at least decry the practice. There is also what gun writer and blogger Tam Keel calls “Open carrying at people,” which I think is the province of those colloquially known as “attention ******.”

A few years ago, Mark Walters hosted a three-way debate on the topic on his show “Armed American Radio.” The “pro” speaker came, IIRC, from Georgia Carry. The “anti-open carry” speaker was a cop from the Midwest who, though generally pro-armed citizen, thought open carry was counterproductive to both the public peace and the Second Amendment cause. I took the middle ground, which I still hold. One the one hand, I would like for every state to allow any citizen who has a clean record and hasn’t been adjudicated mentally incompetent to be allowed to open carry a holstered, loaded handgun. First, because there are some jurisdictions where if the wind blows your coat open and reveals the gun you are legally carrying concealed, a genuinely frightened citizen or vindictive anti-gunner can combine with an anti-gun prosecutor to create a perfect storm of criminal charges for illegal open carry. Second, because if a good person suddenly becomes a stalking victim or the target of death threats, I don’t want them to have to wait up to 90 days (gun-friendly Florida) or six months (the time it takes before a new resident can even apply for a concealed carry permit in California, which for the most part is decidedly non-gun-friendly). But on the other hand, I don’t think we win any friends for gun owners’ civil rights by flaunting deadly weapons in the face of a general public conditioned to fear guns and their owners by generations of anti-gun media and political prejudice.

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Is there an argument, pro or con, that he didn't hit on the way down?

But then he comes out with

I do open carry a few times a year in public, just to gauge typical response, and have done so in jurisdictions from New Hampshire and Connecticut to Washington State. Most folks don’t even notice.

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thaty pretty much destroys everything said so far.

It's when he gets to the Texas long-gun OCers that he goes ballistic - over the behavior of a small minority. It's still to early to see if that is a valid point or not since the cause keeps advancing in spite of that monority's behavior.

Is it worth trying to establish a dialog with Mas? (Tam, who admits to OCing on occassion, remains adamantly against the practice except when she does it for the reasons she has for doing it. I've written her off as a waste of breath/electrons.)

stay safe.

skid, first wasn't it a bit biased of you to quote the majority of the article, except his comments about the video?

quote: Now, contrast that with this YouTube video, taken by a true attention ***** and cop-baiter. Ask yourself just how much of an ambassador this guy, trolling a school while wearing an openly carried handgun AND a slung long gun, is for the cause of responsible armed citizens. Note that at the end, he and his flaunted guns walk right up to the door of the school, doing a remarkable imitation of Adam Lanza approaching Sandy Hook Elementary School. Note that it was the Bloomberg anti-gun-owner forces who made it go viral. unquote

now when i tried to watch the video from the link you provided and when i went directly to backwoods to reload the site ~ it stated it had been removed by user.

for the record, i have not been nor shall be an advocate of the awe and shock publicity antics of those savants who believe carry of LGs to 'educate the public' via youtube methodology works. I have, from the beginning, stated the Texas groups pushing for OC were ill advised to take this approach and the backlash across the country was and has been previously noted on this forum numerous times, so much so the meat has been picked off the bones which are bleached white. to be honest the BS does not deserve the rehash by those touting the success of their approach as it bloody hell didn't work in texas and nationally hurt ALL gun owners from the negative publicity generated by the antis as these LG carrying idiots gave them fodder to throw into the news to use against everyone.

the sad gist is ~ the citizens of Texas are no further along their path to OC. i'm sorry, but the concept of being allowed to OC after you get a CHP is outlandish at best and for those to say..."well it is a start" are basically deluding themselves and stuck on stupid.

I do believe kudos should be given to Mr. Ayoob for even publishing an OC article tho truth be told, i am afraid i liken it to a little johnny come lately as he could have said something publicly prior to this as it now looks like he is wanting to climb on the bandwagon as an advocate as the horse draws the wagon around the public square for the accolades.

stepping off my soapbox for the moment, i thank you for your attention, short as it was...

ipse

skid, et al., the comments about mr ayoob's article are quite interesting and several also explain the video's was a set up?

btw, who on this green earth would use a nom de plume of Remasculated on a public comment board? so confused...

ipse

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2015/03/10/open-carry-whats-your-take/

One the one hand, I would like for every state to allow

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Bold added by me....

That is all I need to know about Mr. Ayoob's perspective on rights.

Bikenut said:

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2015/03/10/open-carry-whats-your-take/

One the one hand, I would like for every state to allow

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Bold added by me....

That is all I need to know about Mr. Ayoob's perspective on rights.

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IMO - 97% of what says or does is spot on good advice. He is an excellant trainer/teacher.

Does that missing 3% make any difference? Yep, sure does - effectively he is anti OC.

Massad is a writer, and has molded himself into a "expert" witness, all for money. Yes some of what he says is correct, most of it we already know, and don't need someone to bloviate on. The rest is outright, drop your jaw, foolishness. He likes to bloviate for the attention he can get, and he is part of the P4P advocates.

There are many writers that I honor, but not to the point that Massad fanbois do. Skeeter Skelton, Elmer Kieth, Tom Threepersons, Bill Jordan, Col Cooper experience matches their claims. His does not, and he has been busted with inconsistencies while testifying. He is a member of several groups, but for a writer, a witness, someone who likes the public limelight he will not show his face to defend himself. I would bet he has a SN on this site.

Massad show yourself.

IMO, many of these guys who are known to run LEO training seminars and who are well-known by cops, who might even want an autograph...GET SPECIAL TREATMENT.

Nuff said.

So what they say and want is somewhat moot. They're not in the role of the common LAC so they have little idea what's really happening.

Grapeshot said:

IMO - 97% of what says or does is spot on good advice. He is an excellant trainer/teacher.

Does that missing 3% make any difference? Yep, sure does - effectively he is anti OC.

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He may well have been anti-OC at one time. But as I read the quoted material in the OP, I don't think he is anti-OC. He does appear to be anti-provocative.

"I would like for every state to allow any citizen who has a clean record and hasn’t been adjudicated mentally incompetent to be allowed to open carry a holstered, loaded handgun. .... But on the other hand, I don’t think we win any friends for gun owners’ civil rights by flaunting deadly weapons in the face of a general public conditioned to fear guns and their owners by generations of anti-gun media and political prejudice."

If we don't get too hung up on the wording of "allow any citizen..." vs something like "decriminalize OC" or "fully respect our right to OC" he is on board. He gives support for OC for several reasons including to defend oneself without having to wait to get a permit to carry.

I don't doubt for a second that he isn't nearly as much an advocate of OC as most everyone here. But I'm quite happy to count as an ally most anyone who will advocate for the law to respect my right to OC without needing a permit. His personal views about the prudence of OCing in various circumstances or the political fallout of how one OC--including the OC of items that are off topic on most of this board--are just that: personal views so long as he defends my legal right to OC.

My personal view is that we do much better finding allies where we can rather than making someone an opponent over minimal and non-material disagreements.

Over the years, a couple of the strongest supporters of RKBA in the Utah legislature didn't actually own any guns. Some of our worst opponents have been the "I own guns and belong to the [pro-gun group], but..." types. As long as someone defends and advocates for my RKBA (and right to OC and carry discretely), his personal views or preferences or choices are not really much my concern.

Charles

Which brings me back to "by flaunting deadly weapons in the face of a general public conditioned to fear guns and their owners". That completely ignores the educational component of OCing - demonstrating to the general public that the mere presence of a holstered handgun is not a sure sign of some deranged nut-job who is about to shoot up the local convenience store.

Mas says he has tried OC in order to guage the public response and came to the conclusion that for the most part nobody noticed. But he's not refering only to TCOC and their ilk when he repeats Tam's comment about "wearing your gun at somebody". You really need to understand Tam's comment to understand it is not just about the long-gun toting or drop-leg holster folks. It's also older than the current Texas OC push.

If Mas is not going to come out and support OC, at least let him not put it down and say that the general public, who seem not to notice, are frightened by OC. Just the same as I do not disparage him and his CC proponents that go around wearing those shoot-me-first vests and the pants of 1000 pockets.

stay safe.

utbagpiper said:

--snipped--

"I would like for every state to allow any citizen who has a clean record and hasn’t been adjudicated mentally incompetent to be allowed to open carry a holstered, loaded handgun. .... But on the other hand, I don’t think we win any friends for gun owners’ civil rights by flaunting deadly weapons in the face of a general public conditioned to fear guns and their owners by generations of anti-gun media and political prejudice."

My personal view is that we do much better finding allies where we can rather than making someone an opponent over minimal and non-material disagreements.

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Every mouth has two sides - Mas uses both of his. He is not as rabidly against OC as he once was, but he hardly promotes it. Better that he should remain neutral w/o using anti terminology.

He thinks/says that we should be "allowed" to OC? Really? Conclude that means not w/o a permit. Many, many Virginians would take exception to that as our right to OC does not require a piece of paper.

Open carry is the practice of wearing a presumably loaded firearm, visibly. It normally takes the form of a holstered handgun. It occasionally takes the form of someone carrying a rifle or shotgun into a restaurant, which has a history of causing restaurant chains to ban or at least decry the practice.

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Notice how he immediately condemned open carry of long guns in restaurants. Who carries long guns concealed?

Anyway, he did not say:
Open carry is the practice of wearing a presumably loaded firearm, visibly. It normally takes the form of a holstered handgun. It occasionally takes the form of someone carrying a rifle or shotgun. Open carrying of holstered handguns of carrying long guns into a restaurant, which has a history of causing restaurant chains to ban or at least decry the practice. But, decrying the practice usually more so for long guns.

The average anti-open carry folks dislike handguns and despise those evil long guns. And those anti-open carry folks include those snobby conceal carry fanatics who believe exercising a privilege is superior to exercising a right.

I equate this attitude to when I was 10/15 years old when the family house keeper was not allowed to eat a sandwich at the Walgreens lunch counter. I have a problem with people who attempt to harass the law abiding exercising their rights.

I don't have much respect for those that resort to hyperbole to justify their prejudices.

I will be honest, I don't think much of Mas, IMO he is mostly full of hot air. I watched his review of the Glock 42 the other evening, and I was shocked at his blatant disregard for safety. You would not expect that from such a "expert".

What would one bet, if he and ones like him were for OC, then alot of the CC only sheep would start OCing? I would bet you would see more. I have posted this statement on another forum. Its true, some of the most anti-OC crap I read is from other "gun folks", really sad.

Perhaps the fog is clearing and the clouds are parting?

Mas has come out with a follow-up column about the OC/CC issue:
http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/Mass...e-on-open-carry/comment-page-1/#comment-31998

It would be nice to see/read him continue drawing the distinction between what he has labled "provocative" and "discrete" open carry, and even nicer to see/read him carry that distinction over to the concealed carry side as well.

I'm waiting for moderation of my comment this morning. If it makes it through the screening process to approval you can read it at the site linked above. If not, you can read it here:

skidmark Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
March 17th, 2015
What still bothers me is the distinction being made between “provocative” and “discrete” open carry when said open carry does not involve the carrying of long guns but solely the open carry of holstered handguns. There seems to me to be a common type of behavior at play that has nothing to do with the open carry of handguns but is instead the “dress-up” costume wearing of a small number of those who open carry – much like the same “dress up” costume wearing of a small number of those who carry concealed.

Wearing body armor (inside or outside of clothing) and the use of drop-leg holsters seems to be the major (but not only) “dress up” behavior that brings open carriers a bad name, closely followed by openly carrying holstered handgun versions of what are usually considered long guns – pistol ARs and AKs as well as the occassional holstered AOW short-barrel shotgun. The concealed carrry crowd has its own favorite forms of “dress up” that usually take the form of “shoot me first” vests and “the pants of 1000 pockets” tactical clothing and concommitant battel-rattle load-out of EDC gear. (While I agree that it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it I think some of the EDC excess can be compared to hauling around a blender because one never knows when they will desire a smoothie and its better ….

The problem seems to be that usually what Mas is calling “discrete” open carry gets lumped in with the “provocative” open carry. At the same time those who espouse the “tactical uniform” worn to conceal their holstered handgun are not being pointed out as being in any way provocative – even though the fact that they are carrying concealed is being broadcast for everyone to notice. It is that difference that, I think, makes open carriers feel as if the entire concealed carry camp is hypocritical in its dislike of open carrying.

Rather than defining the difference as being between “discrete” and “provocative” I often think the divide should be between “going about your everday business without calling special attention to yourself” and “wearing a clown suit”.

stay safe.

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I may be wishing and hoping but it seems that Mas is making a swing in the way he approaches the open carry issue. While i'm up getting some popcorn does anybody want anything from the concession stand?

stay safe.

skidmark said:

Mas has come out with a follow-up column about the OC/CC issue:
http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/Mass...e-on-open-carry/comment-page-1/#comment-31998

It would be nice to see/read him continue drawing the distinction between what he has labled "provocative" and "discrete" open carry, and even nicer to see/read him carry that distinction over to the concealed carry side as well.

I'm waiting for moderation of my comment this morning. If it makes it through the screening process to approval you can read it at the site linked above. If not, you can read it here:



I may be wishing and hoping but it seems that Mas is making a swing in the way he approaches the open carry issue. While i'm up getting some popcorn does anybody want anything from the concession stand?

stay safe.

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Perhaps a concession or two - think that MAS could use a few more.

Grapeshot said:

Perhaps a concession or two - think that MAS could use a few more.

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To quote someone: "Baby steps." That, and possibly: "This is not yet the time."

stay safe.

skidmark said:

To quote someone: "Baby steps." That, and possibly: "This is not yet the time."

stay safe.

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The time has come, the Walrus said, to speak of many things.......

Zun enough, zun enough.

Clearly Mas has been reading out site. I ask again, Massad Ayoob come to OCDO and talk, and answer questions with us. Instead of hiding behind others, and blogs? Do you have the guts?

There are a lot of members that have questions they would like to ask you directly.

WW, et al., while the gentleman might not actively participate on this particular website, Kudos for speaking out on his forum's platform.

it is my humble opinion, for all its worth BTW, he gained brownie points and my personal regard rose several notches for at least continuing the OC dialogue on his venue to his diverse audience!

additionally, if our membership wasn't reading him, they are now...

ipse

Why would anyone who doesn't think much of Mr. Ayoob want to have a "discussion" with him?

And why would Mr. Ayoob want to engage in such a discussion when the person requesting it isn't interested in reading anything beyond sound bite bumper stickers anyway? Much less with someone who has demonstrated a greater desire to find or imagine differences than to acknowledge agreements?

It appears Mr. Ayoob is less enthusiastic about OCing for political or educational reasons than most here. But he seems to be headed the right direction and has now publicly opposed laws against OC. I would not nominate him for OC team captain. Neither do I see any value in pillaring him for heresy.

Charles