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Thread: Do you need a retention holster to open carry safely?

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Do you need a retention holster to open carry safely?

    Youtube personality The Yankee Marshal thinks absolutely not

    See his March 15, 2015 video below discussing people that say you MUST have a retention holster to open carry

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lbl2qHbqTA
    Advocate freedom please

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Yellow wrist watch? A Casio? Not very manly...
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    So what's your take, guys?

    Me:
    0. Mexican carry, shove it in the pants, no belt = if that floats yer boat, g'head. Just don't drop it down your trouser leg and shoot yernuts off, bro.
    1. Uncle Mike's = nope; gun falls out on its own.
    2. Kydex formfitting snap in = depending on where you carry, reasonable.
    3. Nate 2 Squared polycarbonate IWB, but no cover garment = Not bad, not bad at all. Gotta twist it the 'wrong way' to get it out.
    4. Thumb press kydex (as in video) = sure, again, depending on where you carry. If too far back, hard to access could be an issue.
    5. Double retention = prob. too much.
    6. Triple retention = only for professionals, LE, FIB, CAI, BTAF; guys who run -to- the fight.

    What worries me sometimes is the typical Walmart stance, hunched over the cart in the checkout line. I've had older ladies 'count coup' on me (I was carrying concealed under the arm at the time). I didn't even know the lady and she comes up and pats my back or shoulder telling me it was hot outside or cold or something. Middle aged ladies like to paw me for some crazy reason, in Walmart. "I don't KNOW YOU, ma'am".

    Thoughts?

  5. #5
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    Having seen several handguns fall out of holsters over the years I am a firm believer in some type of positive retention system.

    I also use a lanyard in certain situations.

    But to each your own.
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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Having seen several handguns fall out of holsters over the years I am a firm believer in some type of positive retention system.I also use a lanyard in certain situations.
    .......
    This is Truth. I use a lanyard also when I know I am going to be mobile a lot.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    I do not always agree with the Yankee Marshal, but I agree with him on this one.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Do you NEED one in order to OC safely?

    First, let's clarify "retention" - unless your handgun is floating in the air whatever holster you are using is retaining it.

    Second, let's look at what sort of stresses and gravitational pull you are going to subject the handgun to in relation to how friction between the holster and the handgun resists that gravitational force.

    Third, let's figure out just how paranoid about a gun grab you are or are not.

    One-size-fits-all/most usually does not do a good job for any size. Additional retention is probably a good idea just to avoid scratches when your handgun falls out.

    Holster material is significant. Nylon/Codura has a low coefficient of friction and is difficult to fit closely to the handgun.

    Some folks swear that detail boning of leather/kydex/plastic creates additional friction which means more retention.

    Some folks do cartwheels down the street and have a higher need to make sure their handgun does not fall out and get scratched. Couch potatos and mall-walkers have different needs.

    To close out, we'll bring up that some folks like a retention device because it gives them an additional split second to decide if they really, really want/need to pull the handgun. Following a self defense incident those people are often referred to as "deceased".

    All this does not mean I'm against retention devices. Heck, some of my favorite holsters have them. But since I tend to carry the same handgun the same way in the same holster those others tend to sit in a plastic bin (just in case one day I change my mind).

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Do you NEED one in order to OC safely?

    First, let's clarify "retention" - unless your handgun is floating in the air whatever holster you are using is retaining it.

    Second, let's look at what sort of stresses and gravitational pull you are going to subject the handgun to in relation to how friction between the holster and the handgun resists that gravitational force.

    Third, let's figure out just how paranoid about a gun grab you are or are not.

    One-size-fits-all/most usually does not do a good job for any size. Additional retention is probably a good idea just to avoid scratches when your handgun falls out.

    Holster material is significant. Nylon/Codura has a low coefficient of friction and is difficult to fit closely to the handgun.

    Some folks swear that detail boning of leather/kydex/plastic creates additional friction which means more retention.

    Some folks do cartwheels down the street and have a higher need to make sure their handgun does not fall out and get scratched. Couch potatos and mall-walkers have different needs.

    To close out, we'll bring up that some folks like a retention device because it gives them an additional split second to decide if they really, really want/need to pull the handgun. Following a self defense incident those people are often referred to as "deceased".

    All this does not mean I'm against retention devices. Heck, some of my favorite holsters have them. But since I tend to carry the same handgun the same way in the same holster those others tend to sit in a plastic bin (just in case one day I change my mind).

    stay safe.
    My cartwheeling days are long past (three decades past), so I'm happy using a Fobus holster for myself, it has enough retention to stay put for my life activities.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Fobus?

    Just to add...paddle holsters are no go. A 15yo kid could rip it right off that metal pin if he wanted to.

    YMMV.

  11. #11
    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Fobus?

    Just to add...paddle holsters are no go. A 15yo kid could rip it right off that metal pin if he wanted to.

    YMMV.
    I have limited options for my Glock 42 for now. Yes, I open carry a Glock 42, I like the fact it only weighs 16 oz fully loaded and its not pulling down on my belt.

  12. #12
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    I OC my SIG P239 in a Galco leather holster specifically configured for that pistol, and it includes a thumb-release top retention strap.

    This retention strap does not increase my draw time because I have practiced the draw many, many times. I believe that even though it's a simple retention device, most "grabbers" would not be familiar with it, and will prevent them from achieving their goal of removing the pistol before I have had time to react.

    This is a theoretical belief -- I have never had anyone try to grab my firearm.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Youtube personality The Yankee Marshal thinks absolutely not

    See his March 15, 2015 video below discussing people that say you MUST have a retention holster to open carry

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lbl2qHbqTA
    WOW, I am so impressed with YM, at one time I believed he was CC only, but wow. He certainly supports at least handgun open carry, and does a good job busting myths, and does it safely.

    Massad Ayoob, where are you, have you watched his videos? You might actually learn something...

    Disclaimer<nothing above should be taken that I like Yankees> I do recognize when they do something noble, kinda makes them a honorable southern gentlemen.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    ...

    Disclaimer<nothing above should be taken that I like Yankees> I do recognize when they do something noble, kinda makes them a honorable southern gentlemen.
    ...nooo, it makes them no different than a blind squirrel, who does find a nut every now and then.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  16. #16
    Regular Member Elm Creek Smith's Avatar
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    I've open carried with Don Hume JIT belt slides and a Bucheimer Concealer with a thumbbreak. Fobus never impressed me, though. Now, however, I use a Safariland Model 6378 ALS holster on the belt loop for my S&W Model 37 most of the time and the Bucheimer Concealer for my Model 13. I'm not telling anyone else their business, I just feel better knowing that it's going to take a deliberate act to release the gun.

    YMMV.

    In the interests of full disclosure, I carry my service revolver S&W Model 686 in a Safariland Model 6280 SLS at work and have gotten used to the security features. If they aren't there, I miss them.
    Last edited by Elm Creek Smith; 03-18-2015 at 05:15 PM.
    "If the truth hurts, it should." - Dad

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Fobus?

    Just to add...paddle holsters are no go. A 15yo kid could rip it right off that metal pin if he wanted to.

    YMMV.
    Yes, some nebulous kid could.

    But except in handgun retention classes when was the last time someone made a grab for your gun? Or intentionally targeted on OCer for a gun grab because they were OCing?

    When was the last time you ripped off your Fobus paddle holster when you became entangled on something like a chair or table?

    I'm glad you have found something else so that you will not be forced, by lack of alternatives, to wear a Fobus paddle holster.

    (Full disclosure: I dislike Fobus holsters because they tend to melt onto my very warm slide when I reholster.)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  18. #18
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    I like a level 2 retention. I carry the Glock 19 in a Blackhawk Serpa paddle holster. Anyone that knows, this holster cannot just be pulled up off your belt, in fact if you dont know the trick, it can be a genuine PITA. The Bersa is carried in a Bianchi with a leather thumb break. It can be pulled up off the belt alot easier. Good thread BTW.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran ATM's Avatar
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    I concur, there is no need for a retention holster to carry safely, openly or concealed.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Elm Creek Smith's Avatar
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    If you ride a motorcycle while carrying...

    ...I'm thinking that a retention holster might not be a bad idea, having myself become separated from my bike through no fault of my own. Luckily, I was wearing my carry gun concealed that day in a shoulder holster under my armored jacket, so my S&W Model 13 remained with me. (Yeah, I'm a gear guy - boots, helmet, armored jacket.)
    "If the truth hurts, it should." - Dad

    " A year from now, ten, they'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more running. I aim to misbehave." - Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity

    "The cheaper the crook, the gaudier the patter." - Sam Spade, The Maltese Falcon

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elm Creek Smith View Post
    ...I'm thinking that a retention holster might not be a bad idea, having myself become separated from my bike through no fault of my own. Luckily, I was wearing my carry gun concealed that day in a shoulder holster under my armored jacket, so my S&W Model 13 remained with me. (Yeah, I'm a gear guy - boots, helmet, armored jacket.)
    It worked for you, and I'm glad. But that does not mean that everybody else must use a holster that uses more than friction to retain the handgun.

    If we went down that road we'd end up with Retention Level XXXIV.cm just so those persons who seem to drop their gun out of their purse/jacket pocket in the public restrooms would not need to worry about the handgun "just going off" when it hit the floor.

    If you find that a holster that uses only friction to hold/retain your handgun does not work for you, by all means go for something with additional retention features. But don't tell me what I need to do, OK?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  22. #22
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    "Need"? No.
    But you don't 'need' ABS, seat belts, traction control, crumple zones, or tires with tread to drive. They're all highly recommended though.

    It all depends on circumstances and surroundings; if you have no one around you, then you're unlikely to be subject to a snatch'n'grab.

    Personally, I have a Safariland ALS retention holster bolstered with an accessory guard.

  23. #23
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    So what's your take, guys?

    Me:
    0. Mexican carry, shove it in the pants, no belt = if that floats yer boat, g'head. Just don't drop it down your trouser leg and shoot yernuts off, bro.
    1. Uncle Mike's = nope; gun falls out on its own.
    2. Kydex formfitting snap in = depending on where you carry, reasonable.
    3. Nate 2 Squared polycarbonate IWB, but no cover garment = Not bad, not bad at all. Gotta twist it the 'wrong way' to get it out.
    4. Thumb press kydex (as in video) = sure, again, depending on where you carry. If too far back, hard to access could be an issue.
    5. Double retention = prob. too much.
    6. Triple retention = only for professionals, LE, FIB, CAI, BTAF; guys who run -to- the fight.

    What worries me sometimes is the typical Walmart stance, hunched over the cart in the checkout line. I've had older ladies 'count coup' on me (I was carrying concealed under the arm at the time). I didn't even know the lady and she comes up and pats my back or shoulder telling me it was hot outside or cold or something. Middle aged ladies like to paw me for some crazy reason, in Walmart. "I don't KNOW YOU, ma'am".

    Thoughts?
    Quadruple retention so none of those guys and gals hurt themselves or anyone else....

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    It all depends on circumstances and surroundings; if you have no one around you, then you're unlikely to be subject to a snatch'n'grab.
    You got a citation on a snatch'n'grab?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  25. #25
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    You got a citation on a snatch'n'grab?
    Hmm,, well... NJ gun grab story and maybe NM Man attempts to grab gun from officer's holster. I would posit that neither of those would happen if there were no people around to do the grabbin, what do you think?

    I didn't think I needed a citation when I said it was an unlikely event when there was no one around to do so. It's my opinion that it's more likely to happen when there are people around than when there aren't.

    Do I really need a citation to say you're less likely to be sneezed upon when there is no one around to sneeze than when there are people around?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-20-2015 at 02:52 PM.

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