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Thread: Citizen non-arrest OR a cautionary tale

  1. #1
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    Citizen non-arrest OR a cautionary tale

    As reported at the KSL site, a (plainclothes) security guard from a nearby drug store was following a suspected shoplifter when he saw what he believed was an aggravated assault. He witnesses a man pull a knife on a bicyclist.

    So security guard pulls his gun and the assailant complies. Cops show up and find out that the guy with the knife was the victim of a bike robbery and when he saw his stolen bike, tried to get it back when security guard draws down on him.

    No charges pressed or filed in any case. Cops who respond know the security guard and don't even have him disarm.

    From the posted photos it appears security guard has his finger on the trigger while holding the suspected assailant at gun point.

    As one cop is quoted: “I never would have guessed that what happened before was actually what happened,” said Salt Lake City Police Sgt. Robin Heiden. “There are three different things going on in this case. You can’t make this stuff up.”

    And this is why a lot of us do not plan to use our guns to intervene when we are not personally in danger.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member J_dazzle23's Avatar
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    It sounds like legally he was justified according to state law, morally that is a personal decision.

    What this IS is another example of a violent felony being prevented or at least stopped by a MWAG under legal circumstances, and lo and behold, no violent shootouts western 1800's style, no violence, everyone gets to live another day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J_dazzle23 View Post
    It sounds like legally he was justified according to state law, morally that is a personal decision.
    It seems he had a good faith belief that he was witnessing an aggravated assault. Honest mistake.

    I wonder how some would react were he a cop rather than an LAC, all else being equal.

    More importantly, I wonder how it would work out had the innocent man trying to retrieve his property decided to make an issue of it and press charges. How many of us would take kindly to someone pointing a gun at us as we attempted to retrieve our property? (The wisdom of using a knife and threat of deadly force to retrieve stolen property is probably a discussion for some other time.)


    Quote Originally Posted by J_dazzle23 View Post
    What this IS is another example of a violent felony being prevented or at least stopped by a MWAG under legal circumstances, and lo and behold, no violent shootouts western 1800's style, no violence, everyone gets to live another day.
    To be clear, a supposed violent felony, maybe.

    It is also an example of cops rolling up on an LAC holding someone at gun point and the LAC not getting killed despite some myths to the contrary. Sadly, some of these myths come from within the OC/RKBA community as readily as from outside.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post

    And this is why a lot of us do not plan to use our guns to intervene when we are not personally in danger.

    Charles
    If the guy was on duty security then this is really not comparable to a mere Plebe drawing down on a suspect.

    Either way, are you cautioning people not to help others or are you cautioning people not to pull a deadly weapon on someone to retrieve supposedly stolen property, in public? It seems the latter would be the more important lesson to learn from the story.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    I agree that using a lethal weapon to arrest a thief is not at all a good idea. As the US Supreme Court pointed out in Tennessee vs Garner, not even burglary is a capital offense.

    On the other hand, why did the security guard continue to hold the poor-judgement citizen at gunpoint, rather than help him recover his bike? The story doesn't seem to say.


    As to the lesson about coming into the story and not knowing what happened leading up to your arrival, I recall an article in one of the gun magazines years ago. Some lethal force simulation school was running an exercise with a number of students. The scenario was the student was arriving to work, he hears an altercation down the hall, upon arriving to an office, he sees on person on the ground, the other astride him with an up-raised knife. All but one of the students shot the knife-man (plastic BBs or something). One student ordered the knife man to stop or be shot. Back in the classroom, that student was asked why he didn't shoot immediately. The student was a retired cop or something. He said he had no way to know whether the guy with the knife was the victim who had momentarily gotten the better of his attacker.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    If the guy was duty security then this is really not comparable to a mere Plebe drawing down on a suspect.

    Either way, are you cautioning people not to help others or are you cautioning people not to pull a deadly weapon on someone to retrieve supposedly stolen property, in public? It seems the latter would be the more important lesson to learn from the story.
    Unless the event took place on property the security guard was contracted to work, it IS some mere Plebe drawing down on someone.

    Now look at the chronology of the events as reported. Bicycle Guy has his bike stolen by Sumdood. Bicycle Guy later sees his bike and Sumdood. Sumdood is not iminently threatenig Bicycle Guy, but Bicycle Guy pulls a knife on Sumdood.

    Therefore Bicycle Guy is the aggressor and Sumdood is the innocent victim. Security guard has the right guy but unless he is what Virginia calls a Conservator of the Peace he is making a citizen's arrest he is committing kidnapping or false imprisonment. And even if he is a CoP and does all this outside thje jurisdiction of his commission he has no protection greater that a mere Plebe doing it.

    Mason, I haz a great disappoint about you You should spot these factoids and know how they work with the laws.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Unless the event took place on property the security guard was contracted to work, it IS some mere Plebe drawing down on someone.

    Now look at the chronology of the events as reported. Bicycle Guy has his bike stolen by Sumdood. Bicycle Guy later sees his bike and Sumdood. Sumdood is not iminently threatenig Bicycle Guy, but Bicycle Guy pulls a knife on Sumdood.

    Therefore Bicycle Guy is the aggressor and Sumdood is the innocent victim. Security guard has the right guy but unless he is what Virginia calls a Conservator of the Peace he is making a citizen's arrest he is committing kidnapping or false imprisonment. And even if he is a CoP and does all this outside thje jurisdiction of his commission he has no protection greater that a mere Plebe doing it.

    Mason, I haz a great disappoint about you You should spot these factoids and know how they work with the laws.

    stay safe.
    But I can haz citizen arrest if I spot a violent felony. Moral of the story - don't go on the offensive unless you're playing defense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    whoa, trigger...this kemo sabe has some observations about way too much wrong with this bloke in shorts and horribly patterned shirt holding a citizen on the ground with a gun.

    at no time did he identify himself to the passerbys who are screaming for identification and to put the gun down...

    no OCOD readers thinks it is odd the SLC police roll up to this bloke holding a citizen on the ground w/a gun and the LEs are not even postured as they get out of their vehicle let alone tell the bloke to put the gun away???

    he is allowed to walk freely back into the scene while other LEs are cuffing the individual on the ground.

    how many of you truly believe, if a john-Q-public OC'r held someone on the ground at gun point any LE approached the OC'r would be posturing and at least have their hand on their firearms.

    there is something wrong here...

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 03-24-2015 at 10:28 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I agree that using a lethal weapon to arrest a thief is not at all a good idea. As the US Supreme Court pointed out in Tennessee vs Garner, not even burglary is a capital offense.
    Can't trust what they say, they are all government employees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    On the other hand, why did the security guard continue to hold the poor-judgement citizen at gunpoint, rather than help him recover his bike? The story doesn't seem to say.
    Clearly he wasn't aware of why the guy with the knife was using the knife against a cyclists until after the cops arrived and sorted the whole thing out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    ... He said he had no way to know whether the guy with the knife was the victim who had momentarily gotten the better of his attacker.
    And that is why many of us are reticent to use deadly force in (seeming) defense of a third party.

    I'm not a cop, I don't play one on TV, I don't care to play one in real life.

    For myself or my family I will risk the consequences (eg prison, bankruptcy) of use of deadly force gone wrong , or a jury ruling that way after the fact. For a stranger? Not so much.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    If the guy was on duty security then this is really not comparable to a mere Plebe drawing down on a suspect.
    Outside his place of employment, it is exactly comparable. Only difference here is the cops knew him from his employment. I expect anyone known and liked by the cops would enjoy similar benefits when they roll up after their associate summons them.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Either way, are you cautioning people not to help others or are you cautioning people not to pull a deadly weapon on someone to retrieve supposedly stolen property, in public? It seems the latter would be the more important lesson to learn from the story.
    I'm cautioning against the use of deadly force in supposed defense of an unknown third party.

    Not using a knife to retrieve lost property seems like a given. That bicycle thief and bicycle owner seemingly declined to press charges against each other suggests to me that their may be gang or familial relations involved in that issue.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  11. #11
    Regular Member J_dazzle23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    This is why I don't talk to this poster.

    Where did it say knife-man was using the knife against the cyclist?

    And, his comment about the gun-man not being aware of why the guy with the knife...until the cops sorted it out is a tautology--a restatement of the obvious intended to explain while at the same time doing no such thing. Colloquially referred to as "duuuh".

    I already knew he wasn't aware. That much was obvious. So, why didn't he find out by asking? The very same thing the cops were gonna do?
    I'm lost as to what your point is here, as it applies to the news story?

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    ah, overridden by the hatfield's and mcCoy's rhetoric...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    ah, overridden by the hatfield's and mcCoy's rhetoric...

    ipse
    LOL

    Good to see you posting again solus. Seems like you took a little break there for a while. /threadhijack
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    LOL

    Good to see you posting again solus. Seems like you took a little break there for a while. /threadhijack
    Click image for larger version. 

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    you just didn't look hard enough in the shadows mate...but thanks for acknowledging my prescence, however, yours and other's smiles were observed...from afar!!

    while those i visited didn't ask nor apparently care to know who joined them at their tables!! quite an interesting phenomenon, IMHO! i guess transparency at its finest, eh?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Then again, Paul Blart, Rite Aide cop, should have been treated by responding cops no different than any other MWAG they do not know. Investigate and sort it out.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Then again, Paul Blart, Rite Aide cop, should have been treated by responding cops no different than any other MWAG they do not know. Investigate and sort it out.
    Why should cops treat someone they know the same as someone they don't know when it comes to a situation like this when the difference is treatment boils down to providing for their and the public's safety? When they know who they are dealing with and he is comporting himself in such a way as they have no reason to believe he is a/the threat to their or public safety it would be silly to treat him the same way as they treat a known gang banger or other violent criminal, or even someone completely unknown to them.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Why should cops treat someone they know the same as someone they don't know when it comes to a situation like this when the difference is treatment boils down to providing for their and the public's safety? When they know who they are dealing with and he is comporting himself in such a way as they have no reason to believe he is a/the threat to their or public safety it would be silly to treat him the same way as they treat a known gang banger or other violent criminal, or even someone completely unknown to them.

    Charles
    they know someone so they treat them differently than another violent criminal so no threat, eh?...

    1. An armed Charleston, South Carolina police officer took his own life after barricading himself in his home following a domestic dispute.
    http://rt.com/usa/248345-charleston-...ce-barricaded/

    someone missed the warning signs

    2. POLICE SUICIDE MYTHS http://www.badgeoflife.com/currentmyths.php

    LE higher than normal population

    3. Research suggests that family violence is two to four times higher in the law-enforcement community than in the general population. So where's the public outrage?http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...riends/380329/

    and the DV is covered up if afflicted by the boys in blue...

    btw, the individual at the rite aide was a rent a cop!

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  18. #18
    Regular Member J_dazzle23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    they know someone so they treat them differently than another violent criminal so no threat, eh?...

    1. An armed Charleston, South Carolina police officer took his own life after barricading himself in his home following a domestic dispute.
    http://rt.com/usa/248345-charleston-...ce-barricaded/

    someone missed the warning signs

    2. POLICE SUICIDE MYTHS http://www.badgeoflife.com/currentmyths.php

    LE higher than normal population

    3. Research suggests that family violence is two to four times higher in the law-enforcement community than in the general population. So where's the public outrage?http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...riends/380329/

    and the DV is covered up if afflicted by the boys in blue...

    btw, the individual at the rite aide was a rent a cop!

    ipse
    If I do not suspect them of committing a crime, and I know the individual, then yeah, I'd treat them differently.

    If there is suspicion- different story

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    they know someone so they treat them differently than another violent criminal so no threat, eh?...
    Not quite. If they know someone well enough to know he isn't (previously) a violent criminal, and if that person isn't presenting an obvious threat as they roll up, why wouldn't they treat that person differently than a completely unknown person especially if the unknown person is presenting a threat or has been detained on allegations of presenting a threat?

    If you ever come home and find your spouse and a complete stranger in a Mexican standoff pointing guns at each other, are you going to treat both persons the same? How about compared to getting home and seeing two complete strangers in your yard pointing guns at each other? After all, your own links tell us how common domestic violence is.

    Now, let's say your spouse calls you to request your help because she is holding a home invader at gun point in the front yard. Of course you're going to treat your spouse (or anyone else you know well and know not to be a threat to you) differently than you treat a complete stranger in such cases.

    I trust all here will understand what an analogy is and not try to pick nits about irrelevant differences between you and a cop rolling up on someone holding someone else at gun point.

    Sometimes we need to step back from our anti-cop views enough to recognize the human component.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  20. #20
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post

    Sometimes we need to step back from our anti-cop views enough to recognize the human component.

    Charles
    Sometimes, we also need to realize that cops need to be held accountable, and attempting to squelch groups of people you disagree with insofar as political philosophy by labeling them in a broad brush fashion with terms such as "anti-cop" will not help reach the common goal. In fact it divides and alienates otherwise united groups of people.

    Sometimes we need to step back from our anti-police-accountability views enough to recognize that authority in this country only has the power that we the people give them. Some people want the government to have more power. Some people want the government to have less power, and those people will never give in. It's our right as Americans not to.
    Last edited by The Truth; 04-15-2015 at 08:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  21. #21
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    the rental cop was holding a gun on a guy laying on the ground who is screaming do not shoot, and the police know all the rental cops holding guns on private citizens are not a threat !!! so glad those LEs have Betazoid capabilities

    if the guy laying on the ground got up... would he have been shot by the rental cop?? then is the rental cop a threat?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Sometimes, we also need to realize that cops need to be held accountable, ....

    recognize that authority in this country only has the power that we the people give them.
    None of which has a thing to do with whether a cop is prudent to treat someone he knows well as a heretofore law abiding and peaceful citizen differently than someone he doesn't know at all.

    Do feel free to answer my question to solus about how you would treat your spouse vs how you'd treat an unknown person your spouse is holding at gunpoint if you arrive home not knowing for yourself what had happened.

    The cops properly have authority to investigate crime, make arrests when legal, etc. Nothing says they have to treat every person they meet exactly the same as every other person. Some persons they know as violent criminals. Others they know as peaceful and law-abiding. Many they don't know but they make risk assessments based on demeanor, etc.

    Would you be happier if they had put the security guard face down at gun point just because that might be how they feel they need to handle some case involving two completely unknown persons?

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    the rental cop was holding a gun on a guy laying on the ground who is screaming do not shoot, and the police know all the rental cops holding guns on private citizens are not a threat !!! so glad those LEs have Betazoid capabilities
    If you'd like to directly answer my question regarding how you'll respond to finding your spouse holding a stranger at gunpoint, I'll be happy to continue the conversation. But I'm not interesting in having a cop-bashing session. It seems there is no shortage of incidents where OCers have legit cause to be unhappy with how cops treat them. I don't see how this incident has anything to do with a legit grievance.

    But some are intent to bash on cops whether warranted or not. They quickly become like the boy who cried wolf.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  24. #24
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    None of which has a thing to do with whether a cop is prudent to treat someone he knows well as a heretofore law abiding and peaceful citizen differently than someone he doesn't know at all.

    Do feel free to answer my question to solus about how you would treat your spouse vs how you'd treat an unknown person your spouse is holding at gunpoint if you arrive home not knowing for yourself what had happened.

    The cops properly have authority to investigate crime, make arrests when legal, etc. Nothing says they have to treat every person they meet exactly the same as every other person. Some persons they know as violent criminals. Others they know as peaceful and law-abiding. Many they don't know but they make risk assessments based on demeanor, etc.

    Would you be happier if they had put the security guard face down at gun point just because that might be how they feel they need to handle some case involving two completely unknown persons?

    Charles
    I'm not even romping in the same pasture as you and solus right now, there are cow patties everywhere. I posted a reply to your specific post. I'm not arguing a claim I didn't make.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  25. #25
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    If you'd like to directly answer my question regarding how you'll respond to finding your spouse holding a stranger at gunpoint, I'll be happy to continue the conversation. But I'm not interesting in having a cop-bashing session. It seems there is no shortage of incidents where OCers have legit cause to be unhappy with how cops treat them. I don't see how this incident has anything to do with a legit grievance.

    But some are intent to bash on cops whether warranted or not. They quickly become like the boy who cried wolf.

    Charles
    glad to, since you asked several questions, none of which as stated as the one above...

    quote: If you ever come home and find your spouse and a complete stranger in a Mexican standoff pointing guns at each other...unquote
    A. i'd call 911 ask for sheriff deputies to come to the residence after stating i fear for my life, then set the phone down, pull my firearm, and seek cover with firearm at ready.

    it is against NC statutes to:
    1. point a firearm at anyone 14-34.
    2. citizen arrest is not an option 15A-404(c)
    3. you may not use deadly force against trespassers.
    4. i'd be pi$$'d the stranger was still viable since my partner is a better shot, and now they have to defend themselves judicially and possibly civilly cuz they broke the law...see 1 & 2 above.

    quote let's say your spouse calls you to request your help because she is holding a home invader at gun point in the front yard. unquote.
    A. i'd call 911 ask for sheriff deputies to come to the residence stating my partner managed to get one call out stating they feared for their life. then i'd go to my residence and see who won.

    it is against NC statutes to:
    1. point a firearm at anyone 14-34.
    2. citizen arrest is not an option 15A-404(c)
    3. you may not use deadly force against trespassers.
    4. i'd be pi$$'d the stranger was still viable since my partner is a better shot, and now they have to defend themselves judicially and possibly civilly cuz they broke the law...see 1 & 2 above.

    quote: How about compared to getting home and seeing two complete strangers in your yard pointing guns at each other? unquote
    A. I'd call 911 ask for sheriff deputies stating there are armed trespassers on my property, set fone down, take cover with firearm at ready.

    it is against NC statutes to:
    1. point a firearm at anyone 14-34.
    2. citizen arrest is not an option 15A-404(c)
    3. you may not use deadly force against trespassers.
    4. wait for the sheriff to mitigate the situation.
    5. press charges.

    please understand, my partner would truly not be treated any differently than a stranger if their firearm is drawn. my tired arse would take cover with firearm drawn cuz something has them truly agitated enough to pull their firearm in the first place and i am not about going to walk up and say...'having a bad day?' nope, as mentioned they are better shots, or so i have told them!

    btw, to clear the air, in the event my partner tried to sweep me or take aim at me with their firearm, i will defend myself w/o hesitation, not bravado mate, but fact!!

    cop bashing...naw'llll sorry piper, your dance around the idiot rent a cop holding a gun on someone prone is done...flat out bad policing from the arriving since they didn't know the situation whatsoever.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 04-16-2015 at 12:39 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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