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Citizen non-arrest OR a cautionary tale

utbagpiper

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As reported at the KSL site, a (plainclothes) security guard from a nearby drug store was following a suspected shoplifter when he saw what he believed was an aggravated assault. He witnesses a man pull a knife on a bicyclist.

So security guard pulls his gun and the assailant complies. Cops show up and find out that the guy with the knife was the victim of a bike robbery and when he saw his stolen bike, tried to get it back when security guard draws down on him.

No charges pressed or filed in any case. Cops who respond know the security guard and don't even have him disarm.

From the posted photos it appears security guard has his finger on the trigger while holding the suspected assailant at gun point.

As one cop is quoted: “I never would have guessed that what happened before was actually what happened,” said Salt Lake City Police Sgt. Robin Heiden. “There are three different things going on in this case. You can’t make this stuff up.”

And this is why a lot of us do not plan to use our guns to intervene when we are not personally in danger.

Charles
 

J_dazzle23

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It sounds like legally he was justified according to state law, morally that is a personal decision.

What this IS is another example of a violent felony being prevented or at least stopped by a MWAG under legal circumstances, and lo and behold, no violent shootouts western 1800's style, no violence, everyone gets to live another day.
 

utbagpiper

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It sounds like legally he was justified according to state law, morally that is a personal decision.

It seems he had a good faith belief that he was witnessing an aggravated assault. Honest mistake.

I wonder how some would react were he a cop rather than an LAC, all else being equal. :)

More importantly, I wonder how it would work out had the innocent man trying to retrieve his property decided to make an issue of it and press charges. How many of us would take kindly to someone pointing a gun at us as we attempted to retrieve our property? (The wisdom of using a knife and threat of deadly force to retrieve stolen property is probably a discussion for some other time.)


What this IS is another example of a violent felony being prevented or at least stopped by a MWAG under legal circumstances, and lo and behold, no violent shootouts western 1800's style, no violence, everyone gets to live another day.

To be clear, a supposed violent felony, maybe.

It is also an example of cops rolling up on an LAC holding someone at gun point and the LAC not getting killed despite some myths to the contrary. Sadly, some of these myths come from within the OC/RKBA community as readily as from outside.

Charles
 

The Truth

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And this is why a lot of us do not plan to use our guns to intervene when we are not personally in danger.

Charles

If the guy was on duty security then this is really not comparable to a mere Plebe drawing down on a suspect.

Either way, are you cautioning people not to help others or are you cautioning people not to pull a deadly weapon on someone to retrieve supposedly stolen property, in public? It seems the latter would be the more important lesson to learn from the story.
 

Citizen

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I agree that using a lethal weapon to arrest a thief is not at all a good idea. As the US Supreme Court pointed out in Tennessee vs Garner, not even burglary is a capital offense.

On the other hand, why did the security guard continue to hold the poor-judgement citizen at gunpoint, rather than help him recover his bike? The story doesn't seem to say.


As to the lesson about coming into the story and not knowing what happened leading up to your arrival, I recall an article in one of the gun magazines years ago. Some lethal force simulation school was running an exercise with a number of students. The scenario was the student was arriving to work, he hears an altercation down the hall, upon arriving to an office, he sees on person on the ground, the other astride him with an up-raised knife. All but one of the students shot the knife-man (plastic BBs or something). One student ordered the knife man to stop or be shot. Back in the classroom, that student was asked why he didn't shoot immediately. The student was a retired cop or something. He said he had no way to know whether the guy with the knife was the victim who had momentarily gotten the better of his attacker.
 

skidmark

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If the guy was duty security then this is really not comparable to a mere Plebe drawing down on a suspect.

Either way, are you cautioning people not to help others or are you cautioning people not to pull a deadly weapon on someone to retrieve supposedly stolen property, in public? It seems the latter would be the more important lesson to learn from the story.

Unless the event took place on property the security guard was contracted to work, it IS some mere Plebe drawing down on someone.

Now look at the chronology of the events as reported. Bicycle Guy has his bike stolen by Sumdood. Bicycle Guy later sees his bike and Sumdood. Sumdood is not iminently threatenig Bicycle Guy, but Bicycle Guy pulls a knife on Sumdood.

Therefore Bicycle Guy is the aggressor and Sumdood is the innocent victim. Security guard has the right guy but unless he is what Virginia calls a Conservator of the Peace he is making a citizen's arrest he is committing kidnapping or false imprisonment. And even if he is a CoP and does all this outside thje jurisdiction of his commission he has no protection greater that a mere Plebe doing it.

Mason, I haz a great disappoint about you You should spot these factoids and know how they work with the laws.

stay safe.
 

The Truth

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Unless the event took place on property the security guard was contracted to work, it IS some mere Plebe drawing down on someone.

Now look at the chronology of the events as reported. Bicycle Guy has his bike stolen by Sumdood. Bicycle Guy later sees his bike and Sumdood. Sumdood is not iminently threatenig Bicycle Guy, but Bicycle Guy pulls a knife on Sumdood.

Therefore Bicycle Guy is the aggressor and Sumdood is the innocent victim. Security guard has the right guy but unless he is what Virginia calls a Conservator of the Peace he is making a citizen's arrest he is committing kidnapping or false imprisonment. And even if he is a CoP and does all this outside thje jurisdiction of his commission he has no protection greater that a mere Plebe doing it.

Mason, I haz a great disappoint about you You should spot these factoids and know how they work with the laws.

stay safe.

But I can haz citizen arrest if I spot a violent felony. Moral of the story - don't go on the offensive unless you're playing defense.
 

solus

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whoa, trigger...this kemo sabe has some observations about way too much wrong with this bloke in shorts and horribly patterned shirt holding a citizen on the ground with a gun.

at no time did he identify himself to the passerbys who are screaming for identification and to put the gun down...

no OCOD readers thinks it is odd the SLC police roll up to this bloke holding a citizen on the ground w/a gun and the LEs are not even postured as they get out of their vehicle let alone tell the bloke to put the gun away???

he is allowed to walk freely back into the scene while other LEs are cuffing the individual on the ground.

how many of you truly believe, if a john-Q-public OC'r held someone on the ground at gun point any LE approached the OC'r would be posturing and at least have their hand on their firearms.

there is something wrong here...

ipse
 
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utbagpiper

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I agree that using a lethal weapon to arrest a thief is not at all a good idea. As the US Supreme Court pointed out in Tennessee vs Garner, not even burglary is a capital offense.

Can't trust what they say, they are all government employees. :)

On the other hand, why did the security guard continue to hold the poor-judgement citizen at gunpoint, rather than help him recover his bike? The story doesn't seem to say.

Clearly he wasn't aware of why the guy with the knife was using the knife against a cyclists until after the cops arrived and sorted the whole thing out.


... He said he had no way to know whether the guy with the knife was the victim who had momentarily gotten the better of his attacker.

And that is why many of us are reticent to use deadly force in (seeming) defense of a third party.

I'm not a cop, I don't play one on TV, I don't care to play one in real life.

For myself or my family I will risk the consequences (eg prison, bankruptcy) of use of deadly force gone wrong , or a jury ruling that way after the fact. For a stranger? Not so much.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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If the guy was on duty security then this is really not comparable to a mere Plebe drawing down on a suspect.

Outside his place of employment, it is exactly comparable. Only difference here is the cops knew him from his employment. I expect anyone known and liked by the cops would enjoy similar benefits when they roll up after their associate summons them.

Either way, are you cautioning people not to help others or are you cautioning people not to pull a deadly weapon on someone to retrieve supposedly stolen property, in public? It seems the latter would be the more important lesson to learn from the story.

I'm cautioning against the use of deadly force in supposed defense of an unknown third party.

Not using a knife to retrieve lost property seems like a given. That bicycle thief and bicycle owner seemingly declined to press charges against each other suggests to me that their may be gang or familial relations involved in that issue.

Charles
 

J_dazzle23

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This is why I don't talk to this poster.

Where did it say knife-man was using the knife against the cyclist?

And, his comment about the gun-man not being aware of why the guy with the knife...until the cops sorted it out is a tautology--a restatement of the obvious intended to explain while at the same time doing no such thing. Colloquially referred to as "duuuh".

I already knew he wasn't aware. That much was obvious. So, why didn't he find out by asking? The very same thing the cops were gonna do?
I'm lost as to what your point is here, as it applies to the news story?
 

solus

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LOL

Good to see you posting again solus. Seems like you took a little break there for a while. /threadhijack

images.jpg

you just didn't look hard enough in the shadows mate...but thanks for acknowledging my prescence, however, yours and other's smiles were observed...from afar!!

while those i visited didn't ask nor apparently care to know who joined them at their tables!! quite an interesting phenomenon, IMHO! i guess transparency at its finest, eh?

ipse
 

OC for ME

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Then again, Paul Blart, Rite Aide cop, should have been treated by responding cops no different than any other MWAG they do not know. Investigate and sort it out.
 

utbagpiper

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Then again, Paul Blart, Rite Aide cop, should have been treated by responding cops no different than any other MWAG they do not know. Investigate and sort it out.

Why should cops treat someone they know the same as someone they don't know when it comes to a situation like this when the difference is treatment boils down to providing for their and the public's safety? When they know who they are dealing with and he is comporting himself in such a way as they have no reason to believe he is a/the threat to their or public safety it would be silly to treat him the same way as they treat a known gang banger or other violent criminal, or even someone completely unknown to them.

Charles
 

solus

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Why should cops treat someone they know the same as someone they don't know when it comes to a situation like this when the difference is treatment boils down to providing for their and the public's safety? When they know who they are dealing with and he is comporting himself in such a way as they have no reason to believe he is a/the threat to their or public safety it would be silly to treat him the same way as they treat a known gang banger or other violent criminal, or even someone completely unknown to them.

Charles

they know someone so they treat them differently than another violent criminal so no threat, eh?...

1. An armed Charleston, South Carolina police officer took his own life after barricading himself in his home following a domestic dispute.
http://rt.com/usa/248345-charleston-carolina-police-barricaded/

someone missed the warning signs

2. POLICE SUICIDE MYTHS http://www.badgeoflife.com/currentmyths.php

LE higher than normal population

3. Research suggests that family violence is two to four times higher in the law-enforcement community than in the general population. So where's the public outrage?http://www.theatlantic.com/national...rs-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/

and the DV is covered up if afflicted by the boys in blue...

btw, the individual at the rite aide was a rent a cop!

ipse
 

J_dazzle23

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they know someone so they treat them differently than another violent criminal so no threat, eh?...

1. An armed Charleston, South Carolina police officer took his own life after barricading himself in his home following a domestic dispute.
http://rt.com/usa/248345-charleston-carolina-police-barricaded/

someone missed the warning signs

2. POLICE SUICIDE MYTHS http://www.badgeoflife.com/currentmyths.php

LE higher than normal population

3. Research suggests that family violence is two to four times higher in the law-enforcement community than in the general population. So where's the public outrage?http://www.theatlantic.com/national...rs-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/

and the DV is covered up if afflicted by the boys in blue...

btw, the individual at the rite aide was a rent a cop!

ipse
If I do not suspect them of committing a crime, and I know the individual, then yeah, I'd treat them differently.

If there is suspicion- different story
 

utbagpiper

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they know someone so they treat them differently than another violent criminal so no threat, eh?...

Not quite. If they know someone well enough to know he isn't (previously) a violent criminal, and if that person isn't presenting an obvious threat as they roll up, why wouldn't they treat that person differently than a completely unknown person especially if the unknown person is presenting a threat or has been detained on allegations of presenting a threat?

If you ever come home and find your spouse and a complete stranger in a Mexican standoff pointing guns at each other, are you going to treat both persons the same? How about compared to getting home and seeing two complete strangers in your yard pointing guns at each other? After all, your own links tell us how common domestic violence is.

Now, let's say your spouse calls you to request your help because she is holding a home invader at gun point in the front yard. Of course you're going to treat your spouse (or anyone else you know well and know not to be a threat to you) differently than you treat a complete stranger in such cases.

I trust all here will understand what an analogy is and not try to pick nits about irrelevant differences between you and a cop rolling up on someone holding someone else at gun point.

Sometimes we need to step back from our anti-cop views enough to recognize the human component.

Charles
 

The Truth

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Sometimes we need to step back from our anti-cop views enough to recognize the human component.

Charles

Sometimes, we also need to realize that cops need to be held accountable, and attempting to squelch groups of people you disagree with insofar as political philosophy by labeling them in a broad brush fashion with terms such as "anti-cop" will not help reach the common goal. In fact it divides and alienates otherwise united groups of people.

Sometimes we need to step back from our anti-police-accountability views enough to recognize that authority in this country only has the power that we the people give them. Some people want the government to have more power. Some people want the government to have less power, and those people will never give in. It's our right as Americans not to.
 
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