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Thread: SB 70 Let off-duty, or retired police carry guns in schools. Van Wanggaard 3/5/15

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    SB 70 Let off-duty, or retired police carry guns in schools. Van Wanggaard 3/5/15

    Analysis by the Legislative Reference Bureau
    Current law generally prohibits a person from possessing a firearm on the grounds of a school or within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school. Current law exempts from this prohibition a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity. This bill also exempts from this prohibition qualified law enforcement officers, without regard to whether they are on duty, and qualified former law enforcement officers to restore the law as it existed prior to 2011 Wisconsin Act 35, commonly known as the Concealed Carry Act.

    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2015...proposals/sb70

    3/5/2015 Sen. Introduced by [12] Senators Wanggaard, Bewley, Farrow, Gudex, LeMahieu, Marklein, Moulton, Petrowski, Roth, Vinehout, Vukmir and Olsen;

    cosponsored by [43] Representatives Kleefisch, Ballweg, Born, Brandtjen, R. Brooks, Czaja, Danou, Doyle, Edming, Gannon, Heaton, Hutton, Jacque, Jagler, Jarchow, Jorgensen, Kapenga, Kerkman, Knodl, Krug, T. Larson, Macco, Murphy, Mursau, Murtha, Novak, J. Ott, Petersen, Quinn, Rodriguez, Rohrkaste, Sanfelippo, Skowronski, Spiros, Steffen, Swearingen, Thiesfeldt, Tittl, Vorpagel, Weatherston, Young, Kremer and Horlacher

    3/5/2015 Sen. Read first time and referred to Committee on Judiciary and Public Safety

    3/24/2015 Sen. Public hearing held

    http://www.twincities.com/politics/c...retirees-carry

    A bill that would allow off-duty and retired police officers from any state to carry concealed weapons in Wisconsin schools could prevent mass shootings and save lives if the officers' enemies try to seek revenge against their children, police officials and representatives told a legislative committee Tuesday. [ ... ]... [R]etired and off-duty officers could save students' lives if people whom the officers arrested sought revenge by targeting their children at school.

    Sen. Fred Risser, D-Madison, warned that students could tackle an officer if they get a glimpse of a gun. Police responding to a school shooting might mistake the off-duty or retired officers for attackers and kill them, he added.
    [ ... ]
    Sen. Lena Taylor, D-Milwaukee, said she's worried retired officers won't get updated training on cultural awareness, how to detect mental illness and how to de-escalate situations peacefully. That training is crucial now given the rise nationally of white officers killing black men, she said.

    http://www.twincities.com/politics/c...retirees-carry

    https://news.google.com/news/rtc?ncl=dEIjmwbUfC_dIIM 39 articles ATM

    The hypotheticals, could, should have some data supporting or denying. Cops' kids deserve no more protection against revenge than any citizen's children. This bill should be defeated for further empowering a particular class.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 03-26-2015 at 06:39 AM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Just another step in the right direction.
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    When do the great unwashed masses receive such beneficial treatment?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    When do the great unwashed masses receive such beneficial treatment?
    You mean WHEN WILL the serfs/ bozonic law abiding gun toting 'dangerous' constitutional 'terrorists' be recognized as class A citizens not class B citizens?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Just another step in the right direction.

    This is the way I'm going to think of it.

    The antis got their agenda through via incrementalism. We need to learn from that. "All or nothing" will get us nothing 100% of the time.

    First we have CCW with licenses. Then, when the public realizes the "wild west" and "blood baths in the streets" don't happen we'll get constitutional carry.

    First we'll get retired cops able to carry everywhere. Then, when the public realizes retired cops are just regular people with no special authority but allowing them to carry everywhere is no problem will we get it for everyone.

    Incrementalism. It's slow. It's frustrating. But it works. The antis knew this years ago. All or nothing will always get us nothing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    This is the way I'm going to think of it.

    The antis got their agenda through via incrementalism. We need to learn from that. "All or nothing" will get us nothing 100% of the time.

    First we have CCW with licenses. Then, when the public realizes the "wild west" and "blood baths in the streets" don't happen we'll get constitutional carry.

    First we'll get retired cops able to carry everywhere. Then, when the public realizes retired cops are just regular people with no special authority but allowing them to carry everywhere is no problem will we get it for everyone.

    Incrementalism. It's slow. It's frustrating. But it works. The antis knew this years ago. All or nothing will always get us nothing!
    Without question a very well reasoned position.

    Though, I'm curious, why retired cops? If they're just regular people, after they retire, why am I not considered just regular people? Cops, retired or otherwise, are not just regular people in the eyes of the citizenry...whose responsible for this state of affairs.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Though, I'm curious, why retired cops? If they're just regular people, after they retire, why am I not considered just regular people? Cops, retired or otherwise, are not just regular people in the eyes of the citizenry...whose responsible for this state of affairs.

    It goes back to 2004 and the law Enforcement Officers Safety Act. The thought was, an active or retired leo could run into someone they had put in prison and they could be endangered if not armed. So the law was written to allow cops and retired cops to carry in all 50 states without need for a permit/license. That theory is understandable, but it ignores the fact that the same thug could also attack a non-leo and they would be defenseless. This is why universal carry needs to be the recognized law of the land for everyone. I say "recognized" because I feel it's already the law of the land, i.e. the 2nd Amendment.

    I'm passionate about carry for everyone everywhere. If it weren't for HR218 I would be completely defenseless when I travel to California. It infuriates me that others have to either decide to be defenseless, limit their travels, or carry illegally. Those are not acceptable options in what is supposed to be a free country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Without question a very well reasoned position.

    Though, I'm curious, why retired cops? If they're just regular people, after they retire, why am I not considered just regular people? Cops, retired or otherwise, are not just regular people in the eyes of the citizenry...whose responsible for this state of affairs.
    Well, truth be told, regular people generally shoot better.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Well, truth be told, regular people generally shoot better.

    No having trained hundreds of LEOs and non LEOs the percentage of good and bad shots are about the same in each group.

    One thing us gun people forget is most gun owners that goes for most LEO and non LEO gun owners is that they don't practice much.

    I 'll say 90 percent don't really care they own or have a gun for what ever reason. 7 percent care more and practice more 3 percent are gun people and send a lot of time and money perfecting their skills.
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    Have you ever tried to shoot at a target with a handgun more than 50'+ away? It is kind of difficult. With a rifle, it is really easy.

    Nope, 50 ft. I've tried it with my XD45 and can't hit very often. I also don't practice it, so that is probably why


    The above quotes are from a member here talking about trying to hit a standard Police B21 target.

    So even among gun people there is room for improvement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Have you ever tried to shoot at a target with a handgun more than 50'+ away? It is kind of difficult. With a rifle, it is really easy.

    Nope, 50 ft. I've tried it with my XD45 and can't hit very often. I also don't practice it, so that is probably why


    The above quotes are from a member here talking about trying to hit a standard Police B21 target.

    So even among gun people there is room for improvement.
    I would say well over 50% of self defense encounters are going to be <3', so 50' with a handgun is not something I'm really going to practice. Is accuracy important? Absolutely. Is long distance accuracy necessary for most self defense situations? Nope. How many self defense situations do you know of that were 50'+?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    I prefer not to be the lowest common denominator so does one real need any training to defends oneself as seen in the following article.

    http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2015/02...ained-for.html

    Gun people love training. They revel in expertise. They gush over the incredible feats that expert gun users, from Annie Oakley to Jerry Miculek, can accomplish. Do not mistake me. I approve of training. Training is good. I have trained a lot of hours... and days... and years... and decades. I have trained military, police, and civilians. But large numbers of people use handguns very successfully with little or no training.

    A case in point occurred recently in Ohio. From 10tv.com:

    “She was armed and apparently fired multiple shots at him,” said Sgt. Dave Sicilia.

    The woman’s son says he bought the gun for her a week ago to keep her safe now that she is living alone, but he never thought she would actually have to use it.

    Police believe the suspect also broke into neighboring homes.

    Nearby residents heard the shot.

    "I got up and looked into my kids’ room and made sure they were all right,” said one person.

    The burglary suspect was rushed to the hospital with serious injuries. He was pronounced dead shortly before 7:00 a.m.
    While we cannot be sure that the armed homeowner had no training, the article does not mention any. It is implied that the son never expected his mother to actually fire the firearm. I have read numerous accounts of how people have not handled a gun for decades; then pick it up and use it effectively. Guns are designed to be easily used and to point naturally at the target.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 03-28-2015 at 06:33 AM.
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    So, cops should be allowed guns in schools because some may train at long pistol ranges? There is no principle from which to argue for special privileges.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    So, cops should be allowed guns in schools because some may train at long pistol ranges? There is no principle from which to argue for special privileges.

    No because it help destroy the myth of gun free school zones.

    The whole idea of GFSZ is to educate our youngsters that having guns around is a bad idea any thing that weakens that is a step forward.
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    People need to read the facts of how well police shoot vs how well the rest of us shoot:

    http://americangunfacts.com/

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    So why would I practice something that is farther than 25' all that often?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    If you want to play the odds game or the numbers game.

    The odds and numbers show that you will never need a gun to defends oneself. So don't carry at all.
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    I practiced at the range recommended by my PD and where they practiced and qualified. The proprietor acted as RSO, and I got to know him a bit over the years and particularly as he closed up and sold out. He was very critical of the PD's requirements and their lackadaisical attention to shooting and firearms skills in general.
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    Hit your intended target, justifiably, and move along to keeping rabbits out of your vegetable garden. If ya don't, well, being a good shot becomes moot at this point. I don't much care about how well cops shoot, nor do they I suspect.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Have you ever tried to shoot at a target with a handgun more than 50'+ away? It is kind of difficult. With a rifle, it is really easy.

    Nope, 50 ft. I've tried it with my XD45 and can't hit very often. I also don't practice it, so that is probably why


    The above quotes are from a member here talking about trying to hit a standard Police B21 target.

    So even among gun people there is room for improvement.
    I usually practice with a 4x6 plank about 6 ft tall with a paper plate as the head. I usually shoot from 30ft and 50ft. At 50 with my 357 revolver I do manage hits but not too many. I want to buy a 1911 version of it and see if the recoil is much better. I figured if I am able to hit that plank at that distance, it will help improve my accuracy. Need to get some pro targets from leo buddy who seems to have some pro ones and see where I am hitting on the 'body'. I do live in the country so I do not go to a range. I tried using a metal fencepost but the shell disintegrated the post after quite a few rounds.
    Last edited by Law abider; 03-30-2015 at 06:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    I usually practice with a 4x6 plank about 6 ft tall with a paper plate as the head. I usually shoot from 30ft and 50ft. At 50 with my 357 revolver I do manage hits but not too many. I want to buy a 1911 version of it and see if the recoil is much better. I figured if I am able to hit that plank at that distance, it will help improve my accuracy. Need to get some pro targets from leo buddy who seems to have some pro ones and see where I am hitting on the 'body'. I do live in the country so I do not go to a range. I tried using a metal fencepost but the shell disintegrated the post after quite a few rounds.
    Not knowing where your misses are going makes it hard to diagnose why you are missing. One does not need expensive targets to do that. just some good size card board.

    You asked about some training some time back I am still in the business just a few hours north of you or maybe at my sons farm on Dresser Wis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Not knowing where your misses are going makes it hard to diagnose why you are missing. One does not need expensive targets to do that. just some good size card board.

    You asked about some training some time back I am still in the business just a few hours north of you or maybe at my sons farm on Dresser Wis.
    I "enjoyed" the last two comments from Madison and Milwaukees State reps in OP. Hey, IF I could build a space ship to Mars I'd stock it with food, fuel and beautiful women! Probably plan on not coming back any time soon. What I'm really gonna do is go to work like every other day.

    No joy on getting permission slip from wife for carry in school. Upside is I don't go there much. Wife and I took four hours training from FI about a year ago. Helpful, instructive, encouraging and fun! I learned a lot. 4 hours a bit too much for my wife. I hope I can give an endorsement and not break any rules!

    Kinda see both sides of this issue, my kids aren't important? I don't have any enemies? Watching Michigan where you can open carry into a school but not conceal carry. One guy did it and of course the Libs about launched themselves to Mars. Trying to change it to conceal but not open or something different anyway. Probably not at all. Ann Arbor? School says they will call the police and lockdown on site of an open carrier even tho they know fully well it is legal. Who is really causing the disturbances here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    I "enjoyed" the last two comments from Madison and Milwaukees State reps in OP. Hey, IF I could build a space ship to Mars I'd stock it with food, fuel and beautiful women! Probably plan on not coming back any time soon. What I'm really gonna do is go to work like every other day.

    No joy on getting permission slip from wife for carry in school. Upside is I don't go there much. Wife and I took four hours training from FI about a year ago. Helpful, instructive, encouraging and fun! I learned a lot. 4 hours a bit too much for my wife. I hope I can give an endorsement and not break any rules!

    Kinda see both sides of this issue, my kids aren't important? I don't have any enemies? Watching Michigan where you can open carry into a school but not conceal carry. One guy did it and of course the Libs about launched themselves to Mars. Trying to change it to conceal but not open or something different anyway. Probably not at all. Ann Arbor? School says they will call the police and lockdown on site of an open carrier even tho they know fully well it is legal. Who is really causing the disturbances here?
    It was fun for me to it is nice to enjoy ones job
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 03-31-2015 at 12:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Not knowing where your misses are going makes it hard to diagnose why you are missing. One does not need expensive targets to do that. just some good size card board.

    You asked about some training some time back I am still in the business just a few hours north of you or maybe at my sons farm on Dresser Wis.
    Yes I did ask. I'll plan it for when the weather warms up a little more. I'll send you a PM on this site as soon as we get the warmer weather. Dresser would be closer.

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    Ok we'll workout the deals with PMs would give a good reason to visit the son and DIL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    If you want to play the odds game or the numbers game.

    The odds and numbers show that you will never need a gun to defends oneself. So don't carry at all.
    Please keep the argument to the topic at hand. Otherwise, we can make all sorts of arguments that make no sense. If I'm going to be in a self defense situation, it is going to be <10', so why focus on long distance handgun shooting?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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