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Thread: Firearm background check vs CHP background check

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    Newbie bart98stang's Avatar
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    Firearm background check vs CHP background check

    Good evening gentlemen. What is the difference between the background check to purchase a firearm and the CHP background check? I don't remember exactly all the questions that were asked when I bought my Taurus .40 but they seem pretty similar to the questions that are asked on the CHP form. I'm obviously ignorant on the process but why not kill 2 birds with 1 stone? Thanks \m/

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    Quote Originally Posted by bart98stang View Post
    Good evening gentlemen. What is the difference between the background check to purchase a firearm and the CHP background check? I don't remember exactly all the questions that were asked when I bought my Taurus .40 but they seem pretty similar to the questions that are asked on the CHP form. I'm obviously ignorant on the process but why not kill 2 birds with 1 stone? Thanks \m/
    Your CHP back round check involves the cops checking your criminal history in the jurisdictions you gave in your 5-year history on the application. I don't know that they will always check every jurisdiction, but, that is what its there for. You know, the old two misdemeanors of a certain class within a certain period of time or whatever disqualifies a person. That sort of thing.

    Plus, the fedgov isn't s'posed to keep records of the gun-purchase checks. In VA, the state government has a whole list of gun owners who registered themselves in order to get their permission slip.
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-27-2015 at 11:45 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bart98stang View Post
    .... I'm obviously ignorant on the process but why not kill 2 birds with 1 stone? Thanks \m/
    Because then we would run even deeper into the morass that is P4P (perks for permits).

    Or am I misreading you completely and you are just wondering why the questions are so similar? In that case, because bureaucracy.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Your CHP back round check involves the cops checking your criminal history in the jurisdictions you gave in your 5-year history on the application. I don't know that they will always check every jurisdiction, but, that is what its there for. You know, the old two misdemeanors of a certain class within a certain period of time or whatever disqualifies a person. That sort of thing.

    Plus, the fedgov isn't s'posed to keep records of the gun-purchase checks. In VA, the state government has a whole list of gun owners who registered themselves in order to get their permission slip.
    The sadly amusing thing is that there probably do exist some people stupid enough to believe that the Federal Government complies with this requirement...

    TFred

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    Newbie bart98stang's Avatar
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    Thanks guys for the responses. I was just curious as to what the differences were between the 2 background checks.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    It's a good question, in fact, one I have raised before.

    Although there are certainly good reasons to not increase reliance on "the permission slip," I have fun contemplating a scenario where the CHP requirements match the purchase requirements exactly, and since that would remove the cost of the local court involvement, what we would then see would be every future gun purchaser being given the option to add in a $5 fee to automatically get their CHP mailed to them a couple weeks later.

    The entertainment value from watching the gun-haters reaction to that would be worth it all by itself.

    TFred

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    I was getting ready to investigate this myself, because the feds don't recognize VA's CHP check as qualifying for the exemption to buy a gun or to pick up a silencer without a NICS check at time of purchase if you have a permit.

    For one thing, VA does not have a lifetime ban on Domestic Violence misdemeanors to issue a CHP, or possession of firearms.

    TBH, I'm starting to be worried that it means that a CHP doesn't really exempt us from the gun free school zone exception in 18-922 (q)(2)(B)(ii)
    if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    I was planning on floating the question past PVC of VCDL soon.
    Last edited by ChristCrusader; 03-28-2015 at 11:15 PM.
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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristCrusader View Post
    I was getting ready to investigate this myself, because the feds don't recognize VA's CHP check as qualifying for the exemption to buy a gun or to pick up a silencer without a NICS check at time of purchase if you have a permit.

    For one thing, VA does not have a lifetime ban on Domestic Violence misdemeanors to issue a CHP, or possession of firearms.

    TBH, I'm starting to be worried that it means that a CHP doesn't really exempt us from the gun free school zone exception in 18-922 (q)(2)(B)(ii)

    I was planning on floating the question past PVC of VCDL soon.
    then of course there is the semantics of "you don't have a license to possess because Virginia does not issue a license to possess, Virginia issues a permit to conceal", we could all go back and forth for days debating whether they are the same thing or not. Both sides of that debate will refuse to concede that their interpretation of the wording is flawed

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    then of course there is the semantics of "you don't have a license to possess because Virginia does not issue a license to possess, Virginia issues a permit to conceal", we could all go back and forth for days debating whether they are the same thing or not. Both sides of that debate will refuse to concede that their interpretation of the wording is flawed
    Exactly. I have long held the position (well, ever since I actually READ the code...) that the Virginia CHP does NOT qualify for the exemption to the GFSZA, for the very reason you state. It is NOT a "license to possess."

    Nobody has yet to provide any cite to a court case or other legal authority which makes the case that it does.

    The GFSZA is one of the most heinous laws on the books. It makes a felon out of very nearly every gun carrier in the state of Virginia.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Exactly. I have long held the position (well, ever since I actually READ the code...) that the Virginia CHP does NOT qualify for the exemption to the GFSZA, for the very reason you state. It is NOT a "license to possess."

    Nobody has yet to provide any cite to a court case or other legal authority which makes the case that it does.

    The GFSZA is one of the most heinous laws on the books. It makes a felon out of very nearly every gun carrier in the state of Virginia.

    TFred
    Potential Felon TFred...innocent until proven guilty.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Exactly. I have long held the position (well, ever since I actually READ the code...) that the Virginia CHP does NOT qualify for the exemption to the GFSZA, for the very reason you state. It is NOT a "license to possess."

    Nobody has yet to provide any cite to a court case or other legal authority which makes the case that it does.

    The GFSZA is one of the most heinous laws on the books. It makes a felon out of very nearly every gun carrier in the state of Virginia.

    TFred

    I am aware of your position on the "license to do so".
    it is semantics,,,
    Michigan residents feel that their "pistol purchase permit" is a "license to do so".
    The GFSZ law is never enforced unless "insert other bad behavior here".
    Vermont residents can NOT get a "license to do so", but are not anymore
    prone to persecution under the GFSZ law than anyone anywhere else.

    The dot GOV do not want the GFSZ law challenged in the Supreme Court!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    The sadly amusing thing is that there probably do exist some people stupid enough to believe that the Federal Government complies with this requirement...

    TFred
    The FBI is specifically prohibited by law from retaining the records - that's why they pass them on to BATFE and it's the latter that retains the records. I had a case not too long ago in Fed. Dist. Ct. in Alexandria where the prosecutor kept referring to issues of whether a gun was "registered", referring to the BATFE records. She had a problem because my client had bought the gun from a private party in Virginia, so the gun wasn't "registered" in his name. I couldn't tell whether she was being intentionally obtuse or was really that ignorant.
    Last edited by user; 03-29-2015 at 10:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    I am aware of your position on the "license to do so".
    it is semantics,,,
    Michigan residents feel that their "pistol purchase permit" is a "license to do so".
    The GFSZ law is never enforced unless "insert other bad behavior here".
    Vermont residents can NOT get a "license to do so", but are not anymore
    prone to persecution under the GFSZ law than anyone anywhere else.

    The dot GOV do not want the GFSZ law challenged in the Supreme Court!
    Right. The Sup. Ct. has already said that there's no Constitutional basis for the statute because it doesn't have anything to do with regulation of interstate commerce. Congress doctored it up with language stating that, yes it does and that's a Congressional finding. But if it comes up, nothing really having changed except the Congressional findings reflected in the new language, the Sup. Ct. is likely to call bull... on it again. Congress can make a finding that blue is really pink, but the Court is likely to think that has nothing to do with reality and ignore it.
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    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Points to Ponder

    • Disqualifications for a VA CHP as expressed in Code
      ABRIDGED
      #'s 1-4, basically crazy-ish.
      5. restraining or protective order.
      6. felon (non-restored)
      7. two or more misdemeanors within the five-year period immediately preceding the application,
      8. addicted or an unlawful user or distributor of drugs
      9. DUI or public drunkenness within the three-year period immediately preceding the application, or is a habitual drunkard.
      10. An alien other than an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States.
      11. dishonorable discharge
      12. fugitive from justice.
      13. Anyone else they really really really think shouldn't have a gun
      14. assault, assault and battery, sexual battery, discharging a firearm in public or from a vehicle, or brandishing a firearm within the three-year period immediately preceding the application.
      15. convicted of stalking.
      16. juvenile would-be felonies within 16 years
      17. felony charge pending or a charge pending for an offense listed in subdivision 14 or 15.
      18. received mental health treatment or substance abuse treatment in a residential setting within five years prior
      19. drug convictions within the three-year period immediately preceding the application for the permit
      20. drug charges but given probation within the three-year period immediately preceding the application
    • VA disqualification filter as expressed on CHP application's questionnaire
    • Federal possession/purchase disqualifiers
      • Under indictment or information in any court for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
      • convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
      • who is a fugitive from justice;
      • who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
      • who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
      • who is an illegal alien;
      • who has been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions;
      • who has renounced his or her United States citizenship;
      • who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or
      • who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (enacted by the Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act of 1997, Pub. L. No. 104-208, effective September 30, 1996). 18 USC 922(g) and (n).
    • Federal exception allowing a gun permit in lieu of a NICS check at time of purchase/pick-up

      18-922(t)(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to a firearm transfer between a licensee and another person if—
      (A)(i) such other person has presented to the licensee a permit that—
      (I) allows such other person to possess or acquire a firearm; and
      (II) was issued not more than 5 years earlier by the State in which the transfer is to take place; and
      (ii) the law of the State provides that such a permit is to be issued only after an authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does not indicate that possession of a firearm by such other person would be in violation of law
    • Federal Regulation requiring the state issued license include a NICS check to qualify

      (d) Exceptions to NICS check. The provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall not apply if—
      (1) The transferee has presented to the licensee a valid permit or license that—
      (i) Allows the transferee to possess, acquire, or carry a firearm;
      (ii) Was issued not more than 5 years earlier by the State in which the transfer is to take place; and
      (iii) The law of the State provides that such a permit or license is to be issued only after an authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does not indicate that possession of a firearm by the transferee would be in violation of Federal, State, or local law: Provided, That on and after November 30, 1998, the information available to such official includes the NICS;
    • Table of states with and without qualifying permits in lieu of NICS checks (VA is not one that qualifies)
    • Table of states that the FBI, the state, or a blend performs the NICS. (VA does its own check)


    So basically, VA does their own NICS check for gun purchases, because the Feds mandate it when an FFL is involved. But VA does it themselves in-house.
    For a CHP. VA runs a check through the Central Criminal Records Exchange.
    § 18.2-308.04. Processing of the application and issuance of a concealed handgun permit.
    B. Upon receipt of the completed application, the court shall consult with either the sheriff or police department of the county or city and receive a report from the Central Criminal Records Exchange.
    VA uses its own (dis)qualifications, because the feds don't have a mechanism to force States into any mandated (dis)qualifications for a CHP, whereas the feds have the FFL chokepoint for sales to impose their rules.

    YOU may have issues with the FEDS for possession, but you and VA are good. This is a form of state nullification

    Restating in the midst of all the resources spelled out above and illustrated,
    where i get a little leery is:
    the same way that VA CHP isn't on par with the feds to buy a gun showing your CHP rather than do a NICS check,
    is our VA CHP also not on par as an exception to the Gun Free School Zone
    18-922(q)(2)(B)(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    Our CHP applicants are checked and passed against VA law, but aren't screened for federal law.

    This is beside the concern about, "is our CHP a license to possess."
    Last edited by ChristCrusader; 03-30-2015 at 01:41 PM.
    *I am not a lawyer. Nothing from me shall be construed as a magic cloak of legal advice. It's ultimately your tucas that's on the line. Keep examining the law anyway. The gov't, made up of people like us, is supposed to work for us, not against us. Let's find, correct, and avoid the wrongs before they're actively used against us, or we become innocently trapped by them. We're to be the masters. Let's vigilantly keep tabs on our servants who seek to rule us.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    CC you might wish to review this VSP website discussing their Firearms Transaction Center (VTC) since your post's information seems to confuse the FBI's NCIS and FTC's use of their VA CCRE.

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_VFTP.shtm

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    I did an edit tweak:

    Purchase goes through Virginia State Police
    National and state databases are accessed simultaneously at the time of transaction. Four are maintained by the Virginia Department of State Police, accessible by the Virginia Criminal Information Network (VCIN): Virginia’s wanted and missing persons files and protective orders, Virginia’s criminal history record files, and Virginia’s database of adjudications of legal incompetence and incapacity, involuntary commitments to mental institutions for inpatient or outpatient treatment.

    The fifth database accessed during this check is the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) which searches the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) consisting of the Wanted Persons File, Protection Order File, Interstate Identification Index (III), Deported Felons File, US Secret Service Protective File, Foreign Fugitive File, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms’ Violent Felon File, and NICS indexes: Illegal/Unlawful Aliens File, Mental Defectives/Commitments File, Dishonorable Discharges, Citizenship Renunciants, Controlled Substance Abuse File and Denied Persons File.
    CHP's go through VA State Police, Central Criminal Records Exchange.

    right yet?
    Last edited by ChristCrusader; 03-30-2015 at 01:59 PM.
    *I am not a lawyer. Nothing from me shall be construed as a magic cloak of legal advice. It's ultimately your tucas that's on the line. Keep examining the law anyway. The gov't, made up of people like us, is supposed to work for us, not against us. Let's find, correct, and avoid the wrongs before they're actively used against us, or we become innocently trapped by them. We're to be the masters. Let's vigilantly keep tabs on our servants who seek to rule us.

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