Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 95

Thread: More twists in the Walter Scott shooting case

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Tempe, Arizona
    Posts
    189

    More twists in the Walter Scott shooting case

    This is interesting. Appears Walter Scott was fighting with the police officer and used the Tazer on the officer, before running off:

    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...h-taser-darts/

    Also appears the officer didn't help matters by tampering with the crime scene and moving the Tazer.

  2. #2
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Marion County, FL
    Posts
    3,005
    Could be the difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder for him. The article suggests it could be justified, which is of course ridiculous. I know one thing, any confrontation with "heroes" in this country is potentially lethal. They will cover up and lie and protect each other until the bitter end. Best wear audio and visual recording devices to protect yourself.
    Last edited by 77zach; 04-12-2015 at 10:05 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Tempe, Arizona
    Posts
    189
    Tampering with the evidence is very bad for the officer, though perhaps partly motivated by fear of being regarded as someone who lost control of his weapon.

    If a civilian were shot by a non-LEO with a Tazer, and didn't know whether it could now be used to incapacitate him after such a physical fight, would the use of lethal force be reasonable? Perhaps if the confrontation were continuing, though it appears the assailant was fleeing and no longer a threat.

  4. #4
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Marion County, FL
    Posts
    3,005
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    Tampering with the evidence is very bad for the officer, though perhaps partly motivated by fear of being regarded as someone who lost control of his weapon.

    If a civilian were shot by a non-LEO with a Tazer, and didn't know whether it could now be used to incapacitate him after such a physical fight, would the use of lethal force be reasonable? Perhaps if the confrontation were continuing, though it appears the assailant was fleeing and no longer a threat.
    If there was mutual combat and Scott had taken the taser there wouldn't have been any criminal charges. Once he shot him in the back while pathetically running away, it became murder. Aggravating and mitigating circumstances might come during the trial of the murderer.
    Last edited by 77zach; 04-12-2015 at 10:57 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Southeast, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    5,974
    Reading at the link and the comments on the link, it does certainly change my perspective. The first reports/video I saw looked like he just shot a fleeing suspect and then tried to plant evidence. This link suggests that maybe the cop was tazered during the scuffle, shot because he thought the suspect still had control of the tazer still attached to the officer and then picked up the tazer and moved it over by the body to retain control of it so no one could walk up, grab it and use it against him as a contact weapon. Most all of that is supposition and most of it impossible to know until more information/evidence is released or presented at trial.

    I'll just say this - this new information puts it all in a much more gray area in my mind and once again reinforces the importance of innocent until proven guilty and withholding judgment until all facts are in evidence, which will apparently happen in due time.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Jefferson County, CO
    Posts
    260
    And this is why I keep advocating (angrily, at times) to utilize the principle of Presumption of Innocence. I still see so many people do trial by social media, which angers me. In nearly every case like this, a single video - showing only part of the story - is what everybody focuses on. Then they're surprised by a Not Guilty verdict, because the jury saw the whole of the evidence.

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Animated GIF of Slager dropping Taser: http://i.imgur.com/DTYSXXC.gif

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,095
    That obviously biased opinion piece labeled "Truth", is just a biased for the murder as most of the MSM reports are against.

    It still does not change my opinion whatsoever.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrockblc View Post
    And this is why I keep advocating (angrily, at times) to utilize the principle of Presumption of Innocence. I still see so many people do trial by social media, which angers me. In nearly every case like this, a single video - showing only part of the story - is what everybody focuses on. Then they're surprised by a Not Guilty verdict, because the jury saw the whole of the evidence.
    The other side of that coin is that the "defendants" in such stories, in the meantime, get to make up a good story, get union advice, and depending on the department, multiple lawyers.

    Tennessee v Garner allows a cop to shoot a fleeing felon only if he presents a threat of grave bodily injury or death to the officer or others. The taser clearly wasn't functioning against the officer, so that threat is not present.

    I am not at all impressed with the OP article. The author wants to raise uncertainty about the cop maybe not knowing the taser had been dropped, thinking he was still linked to a hostile by taser wires. Huh!?! Does the author think the deceased tucked the taser into his pants before running away? Does the author think the cop can't tell the runner's hands are not holding something the size of a taser? Just because we can't see the taser wires in a grainy video doesn't mean the cop couldn't see the wires, and the cartridge bouncing along the ground.

    Nope. The presumption of innocence is a right for citizens against government. Its not a right for government. And, don't nobody try to say the citizens are government--far, far too many examples of government considering itself above the law and above ordinary citizens. Plus, criticizing a government agent is in fact an enumerated right. It is the other government agents who have to give Slager a presumption of innocence in the context of the justice system, not citizens speaking in public fora.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    WV
    Posts
    2,489
    It's nice to see a different perspective on the shooting. Even the most staunch cop lovers have been pretty quite on this one.
    He apparently tried to stop him by non lethal force. After it failed he murdered him. But I doubt he'll be convicted. There are many, some on this forum, that believe murder is an acceptable response to resisting arrest. The cop does not have to be in any danger in their eyes. I'm pretty positive they will get one of these on the jury.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  11. #11
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Henrico
    Posts
    2,139
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Animated GIF of Slager dropping Taser: http://i.imgur.com/DTYSXXC.gif
    Scumbag "feared for his life."
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Scumbag "feared for his life."
    Cite please.

  13. #13
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,274
    On Monday, Slager sent reporters a statement through his attorney, David Aylor. He repeated that he felt threatened and had no choice but to use deadly force.

    http://www.postandcourier.com/scott-timegap/
    Local paper down in Charleston SC. Other sources are available that report the cop's claimed justification and his departments reiteration of his claimed justification.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,166
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Local paper down in Charleston SC. Other sources are available that report the cop's claimed justification and his departments reiteration of his claimed justification.
    The Posted (against guns) & Currying (favor with da' mayor) - used to be my hometown paper of record - illustration notes "Scott's broken third taillight" as the context/pretext for the stop.

    What taillights are required to be functioning by the SC MVC? There has been a case, in another state, overturned for a cop's mistaken notion that more than one taillight was required functioning.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 04-13-2015 at 11:07 AM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  15. #15
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Local paper down in Charleston SC. Other sources are available that report the cop's claimed justification and his departments reiteration of his claimed justification.
    Fair enough.

    Does anyone find it strange that all of the other officers' reports have been released, but not Slager's?

  16. #16
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Fair enough.

    Does anyone find it strange that all of the other officers' reports have been released, but not Slager's?
    For myself, not really.

    He's an ex-employee; releasing the statements might violate a personnel policy. Separately, the department may see obvious contradictions between the statements and the video; and, are guessing that releasing the statements might trigger another Ferguson. Call it holding onto the statements for political and/or public safety reasons.

    And, even with his (former) Garrity privilege, in the few days right after the shooting, Slager may have decided to not make any detailed statements until he talked to his lawyer.

    So, all in all, no, I don't find it strange that Slager's report hasn't been released.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-13-2015 at 11:44 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  17. #17
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,281
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    This is interesting. Appears Walter Scott was fighting with the police officer and used the Tazer on the officer, before running off:

    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...h-taser-darts/

    Also appears the officer didn't help matters by tampering with the crime scene and moving the Tazer.
    I read that article and dismissed it, that site is known for being state apologists. IIRC they helped push the rumor that DW had a broken eye socket. Watch the videos, when Scott runs from his car he is running normally, as he is running before he is shot he is running like he has a physical disability. OTH Slager shows absolutely no physical signs of being tazed.

    The article is pure hogwash.


    "after the tazing my whole body felt like jello"

    Anybody who still thinks the killer was tazered please raise your hands.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 04-13-2015 at 11:42 AM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  18. #18
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    ...The article is pure hogwash...
    I disagree. More information is better than less.

    Slager has a great deal to explain, and may not ultimately be able to justify his actions, but there is more to the incident than the video, and various parties are already playing games with selective information release.

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I read that article and dismissed it, that site is known for being state apologists. IIRC they helped push the rumor that DW had a broken eye socket. Watch the videos, when Scott runs from his car he is running normally, as he is running before he is shot he is running like he has a physical disability. OTH Slager shows absolutely no physical signs of being tazed.

    The article is pure hogwash.

    Anybody who still thinks the killer was tazered please raise your hands.
    I can receive the article's assertion about tazer wires without rejecting it (nor accepting it). It doesn't do anything except muddy up the logic chain. Cops got all kinda gear and soft body armor. Ain't no barbs gonna pierce soft-body armor, belt gear, badge, etc. All it takes is for one barb to not meet skin, and there is no circuit.

    And, this assumes the cop didn't taser himself in the struggle. For example, say the citizen saw the taser being drawn, and grabbed it or the officer's arm to deflect the taser, and the cop, finger-on-trigger, reflexively fires the taser while its pointed at him in the back-and-forth motions of a struggle. Maybe he gets a barb in his leg or whatever, the other barb hitting equipment or missing altogether.

    For all we know, when the citizen initially saw the taser being drawn, he thought he was about to be shot with a gun. I have personally seen a taser carried by a cop in an across-the-chest holster that took me a couple seconds to recognize it was a taser, not a pistol. And, that is only because I've seen pictures of tasers, and know a little bit what they look like.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-13-2015 at 11:57 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,281
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I can receive the article's assertion about tazer wires without rejecting it (nor accepting it). It doesn't do anything except muddy up the logic chain. Cops got all kinda gear and soft body armor. Ain't no barbs gonna pierce soft-body armor, belt gear, badge, etc. All it takes is for one barb to not meet skin, and there is no circuit.

    And, this assumes the cop didn't taser himself in the struggle. For example, say the citizen saw the taser being drawn, and grabbed it or the officer's arm to deflect the taser, and the cop, finger-on-trigger, reflexively fires the taser while its pointed at him in the back-and-forth motions of a struggle. Maybe he gets a barb in his leg or whatever, the other barb hitting equipment or missing altogether.

    For all we know, when the citizen initially saw the taser being drawn, he thought he was about to be shot with a gun. I have personally seen a taser carried by a cop in an across-the-chest holster that took me a couple seconds to recognize it was a taser, not a pistol. And, that is only because I've seen pictures of tasers, and know a little bit what they look like.
    That is why they yell taser, taser, taser, before deploying the taser so the person about to be tasered will know it is not a firearm. I believe in the video Slager did yell those words, plus if the wires were attached to Slager, as Scott was running away and the taser was on the ground, there would be NO wires to Scott.

    Slager was clearly in full control of his faculties, Scott did not have the taser, Slager tried to plant evidence, and lied to others caught on audio. Also caught on audio Slager laughing after the incident. Plus there was no mention by the PD that Slager had been tased, why? Normally departments release information supporting their cops immediately. No where on his audio does he say that he was tased, he does lie and say that Scott took his taser. IMO the wires were probably wrapped around both of them, a person responds to being tased much like a grand maul epileptic seizure. Maybe that is where they got the idea for tasers. After a seizure there is a state of confusion, same for taser recipients, none of this was seen in Slager's voice, actions, or body movements.

    IMO Slager is a psychopath. Has no problem with lying, cold and calculated, feels no emotion. A very dangerous combination with a gun, and a badge.

    Even before the video SLED was not buying his story.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 04-13-2015 at 12:18 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    SNIP That is why they yell taser, taser, taser, before deploying the taser so the person about to be tasered will know it is not a firearm. I believe in the video Slager did yell those words, plus if the wires were attached to Slager, as Scott was running away and the taser was on the ground, there would be NO wires to Scott.

    Slager was clearly in full control of his faculties, Scott did not have the taser, Slager tried to plant evidence, and lied to others caught on audio. Also caught on audio Slager laughing after the incident. Plus there was no mention by the PD that Slager had been tased, why? Normally departments release information supporting their cops immediately. No where on his audio does he say that he was tased, he does lie and say that Scott took his taser. IMO the wires were probably wrapped around both of them, a person responds to being tased much like a grand maul epileptic seizure. Maybe that is where they got the idea for tasers. After a seizure there is a state of confusion, same for taser recipients, none of this was seen in Slager's voice, actions, or body movements.
    Good points.

    Plus, I think you just touched on something very big--departments are usually quick to release information supporting their cops. The absence of the information you're pointing out is devastating to Slager. Being fired was bad enough; but, the absence of the supporting information...oh, boy, is that bad. Really bad.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  22. #22
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,281
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Good points.

    Plus, I think you just touched on something very big--departments are usually quick to release information supporting their cops. The absence of the information you're pointing out is devastating to Slager. Being fired was bad enough; but, the absence of the supporting information...oh, boy, is that bad. Really bad.
    Not only SLED, his department, the union, but his own attorney dumped him. I think this guy sends chills down just about everybody's spine.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  23. #23
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,281
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    I disagree. More information is better than less.

    Slager has a great deal to explain, and may not ultimately be able to justify his actions, but there is more to the incident than the video, and various parties are already playing games with selective information release.
    Yes, I just found out today the Scott had picked his nose, he certainly deserved it...
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,202
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    That is why they yell taser, taser, taser, before deploying the taser so the person about to be tasered will know it is not a firearm. .
    No is more for the other LEOs so they know what is going on.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 04-13-2015 at 12:38 PM.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    That is why they yell taser, taser, taser, before deploying the taser so the person about to be tasered will know it is not a firearm.
    This plays into a larger question I have had for several years. Frankly, it kinda scares the crap out of me--you'll see what I mean in a moment.

    How does a citizen's specialized knowledge play into things?

    Lemme give you some examples of what I mean by specialized knowledge:

    The Four Rules of Firearm Safety.
    Police academy training on firearm safety.
    Videos showing police yelling "stop resisting" at an arrestee who clearly is not resisting.
    A couple videos, and plenty of articles where a cop mistakenly fired his pistol when he/she meant to use their taser.
    Lethal force training in the military; self-education on justified lethal force (video, books, etc.)

    I don't mean for that to be an exhaustive list; just some stuff I thunk up off the top of my head.

    Now, lets say that because of my military guard-duty training on batons, lethal force, and baton strikes above the shoulders, and self-education on justified lethal force (Mas Ayoob on this point, if I recall), I know that a bludgeon or baton strike to the head can cause grave bodily injury or death. Now, one day I see a cop beating the stuffing out of someone with a baton--I see the whole thing from inception, enough to know the whole story as to whether lethal force by the cop is justified--and I see those baton strikes move from torso to head. Now, what do I do? Shoot the cop? Draw and command he stop, and risk getting shot by his colleagues? Or, shot by him when he turns and sees my gun at low ready?

    Now, lets say I see a cop point a gun at someone, but his finger is inside the trigger guard? I know danged good and well they got trained on the Four Rules in the academy. Just per the Four Rules, his finger inside the trigger guard means that cop is about to fire that gun. If I know to a dead moral certainty the detainee/arrestee has done nothing to justify receiving lethal force, what do I do? Shoot the cop? Yell, "finger!!" like an IDPA match? Or, "get your finger out the trigger guard!" Do I get arrested for interfering?

    So, turning back to your comment about "taser, taser, taser!!" Given the number of accidents where the cop used his pistol by mistake, and the number of times I've seen cops yell "stop resisting" for the benefit of witnesses when the detainee/arrestee was clearly not resisting, the last thing I'm going to do is actually take the cops' word for it that he is only going to use his taser. I have to assume there is a reasonable chance I am about to be shot. Of course, in this case, if the warning is being yelled at me, compliance with orders is the simplest and most survivable solution. But, what about somebody else? I guess there isn't really much I can do except hope and pray the cop grabs the right tool.

    Lets assume for the moment that Scott was murdered. What if I witnessed Slager drawing and launching lead at Scott? Stand around and let an innocent guy be murdered?

    None of the above paragraphs leaves me with a warm, confident feeling about outcomes. And, that's just the immediate outcomes; that is before considering the longer-term legal outcomes. Now you know what I mean by "scares the crap out of me."


    ETA: Question answered. See posts #27 and #29 below.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-13-2015 at 01:42 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •