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Thread: Easter celebration

  1. #1
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Easter celebration

    I don't know why the previous Easter celebration thread was closed. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...mig-the-System

    <redacted inappropriate quip>

    Happy Easter everyone. Thank God for His son.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 04-14-2015 at 01:35 PM.
    Advocate freedom please

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    God Bless US Bitter Clingers.
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    Well, this thread starts out begging for a lock, no?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I don't know why the previous Easter celebration thread was closed. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...mig-the-System

    Hopefully Grapeshot doesn't hate Christians.

    Happy Easter everyone. Thank God for His son.
    Grapeshot has indicated he holds Christian beliefs, so I doubt he hates Christians.

    My guess for the thread closing would be another member failed to realize Christ was viewed a traitor and subversive by Rome and the Sanhedrin, and complained to Grapeshot. I kinda doubt Grapeshot would have missed that point. Since I didn't spell that out, I guess it opened the door to some member complaining.

    The thread lock is in the past. No point dwelling on it now. I would almost rather discuss Christ's message in this thread.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-14-2015 at 11:41 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Absolutely, Citizen.

    So, who here hasn't heard the story of the Resurrection, but would like to know what it's all about?

    Does anyone have any links to videos of good Easter sermons from this year?!?!?
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 04-14-2015 at 01:33 PM.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Absolutely, Citizen.

    So, who here hasn't heard the story of the Resurrection, but would like to know what it's all about?

    Does anyone have any links to videos of good Easter sermons from this year?!?!?
    Thanks.

    I don't have any Easter sermon videos, but I don't mind discussing my observations and conclusions.

    For non-Christians who are not familiar, Easter is the holiday celebrating perhaps one of the most important demonstrations in Western philosophy: Christ demonstrated it is possible to continue to exist, self-aware, after the body stops functioning. Christ had many messages in His ministry; the Resurrection among the most important of all, subordinate perhaps only to the possibility of a better existence (Heaven).

    I have to take care of something just now; I'll be back, looking forward to further discussion, especially the tie-in to rights and freedom.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    yawn....

    how's the Jews, Hindu, Islam, Buddhist, Bahá'í, Pagan, Wicken, agnostic, atheist, and the other gaggle of non-Christian folk doing today?

    any of these groups wish to chat how they spent their time over Easter?

    ipse
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Thanks.

    I don't have any Easter sermon videos, but I don't mind discussing my observations and conclusions.

    For non-Christians who are not familiar, Easter is the holiday celebrating perhaps one of the most important demonstrations in Western philosophy: Christ demonstrated it is possible to continue to exist, self-aware, after the body stops functioning. Christ had many messages in His ministry; the Resurrection among the most important of all, subordinate perhaps only to the possibility of a better existence (Heaven).

    I have to take care of something just now; I'll be back, looking forward to further discussion, especially the tie-in to rights and freedom.
    The resurrection is the most important. However, I don't think the message of a better life after resurrection is a different message. A better life after is pointless without the resurrection.

    As far as how it relates to freedom, Christianity is a volunteer-type way of life. We don't "do" or "not do" certain things in order to earn some entitlement to be resurrected. We do or don't do certain things because the resurrection is a free gift and so we are free to do things because we WANT to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    The resurrection is the most important. However, I don't think the message of a better life after resurrection is a different message. A better life after is pointless without the resurrection.

    As far as how it relates to freedom, Christianity is a volunteer-type way of life. We don't "do" or "not do" certain things in order to earn some entitlement to be resurrected. We do or don't do certain things because the resurrection is a free gift and so we are free to do things because we WANT to.
    I get your point. I agree partly.

    Regarding the Resurrection being the most important and a better life being pointless without resurrection, I would tend more in the direction that a better existence is the whole point, resurrection being necessary to overcome death of the body in this life, i.e., the current existence. The Resurrection may be the most important event for the broadly applicable significance demonstrated to people who had decided they ceased to exist upon the death of their body--no argument there-- but, I would argue that His message of a better existence (Heaven) is the most important of all.

    I agree more than I said at first with your comments about Christian actions being voluntary. I think it can be taken even further. Here is what I mean by that. If the thing behind the eyes that is aware of itself is a spirit, a soul, capable of existing independently of the body while remaining aware of itself,* then that necessarily introduces a number of lines of inquiry, the bottom of which includes self-determination, free will. The automatic result of free will is the desire to have the liberty to implement the designs and plans created by that free will. Or, perhaps more precisely, the gift of free will necessarily includes the liberty to implement that free will. Of course, that immediately leads into committing harms against others and so forth, but that is the next strata of importances/logics/postulates. My point here, is that liberty is hard-wired into human nature by the Creator. It is part and parcel, inseparable from human nature--unalienable.


    *I consider this another very important aspect of His demonstration (the Resurrection). Among other things, He was proving by personal demonstration that people are a unit of self-awareness independent of the body. This, in and of itself, is monumental. It is one thing to suggest that some part of you can continue to exist after your body dies, and exist better; it is something else to imply you exist independent of the body. This would touch to the very nature of a man. What is he?
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-14-2015 at 06:09 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I get your point. I agree partly.

    Regarding the Resurrection being the most important and a better life being pointless without resurrection, I would tend more in the direction that a better existence is the whole point, resurrection being necessary to overcome death of the body in this life, i.e., the current existence. The Resurrection may be the most important event for the broadly applicable significance demonstrated to people who had decided they ceased to exist upon the death of their body--no argument there-- but, I would argue that His message of a better existence (Heaven) is the most important of all.

    I agree more than I said at first with your comments about Christian actions being voluntary. I think it can be taken even further. Here is what I mean by that. If the thing behind the eyes that is aware of itself is a spirit, a soul, capable of existing independently of the body while remaining aware of itself,* then that necessarily introduces a number of lines of inquiry, the bottom of which includes self-determination, free will. The automatic result of free will is the desire to have the liberty to implement the designs and plans created by that free will. Or, perhaps more precisely, the gift of free will necessarily includes the liberty to implement that free will. Of course, that immediately leads into committing harms against others and so forth, but that is the next strata of importances/logics/postulates. My point here, is that liberty is hard-wired into human nature by the Creator. It is part and parcel, inseparable from human nature--unalienable.


    *I consider this another very important aspect of His demonstration (the Resurrection). Among other things, He was proving by personal demonstration that people are a unit of self-awareness independent of the body. This, in and of itself, is monumental. It is one thing to suggest that some part of you can continue to exist after your body dies, and exist better; it is something else to imply you exist independent of the body. This would touch to the very nature of a man. What is he?
    Yes yes! Liberty must be hard-wired into us because we must have context for our choice. A creator who asks his creations to have "faith" in him without giving him the liberty to do so amounts to the creator creating puppets.

    The Bible has a lot to say about what we are and what we may become. The part about abusing liberty is explained as our fallen condition.

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    On The Moral Nature of the universe: Cosmology, Theology, and Ethics, George Ellis

    South African Quaker cosmologist and physicist George F. R. Ellis argues for a moral/ethical dimension to the space of states of the universe in On The Moral Nature of the universe: Cosmology, Theology, and Ethics. (Fortress Press, 1996) with Nancey Murphy.

    Considering the possibilities consistent with time as fundamental, and space emergent only, all possibilities will be realized in infinite time repeatedly and in all variations. We are unique only in this infinitesimal. My creed: This universe, at least, has a God, Creator of Heaven, energy and Spirit, and Creator of Earth, matter and the Son Incarnate, inspired by the Spirit, and born of the Virgin.

    I discovered Ellis as the keynote speaker at the Sixteenth Krakow Methodological Conference, delivering the 2012 Copernicus Center Lecture, "On the nature of cosmology today."

    The keynote
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq8-...4Y0I2&index=15

    The proceedings
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...r_ianG-o24Y0I2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    South African Quaker cosmologist and physicist George F. R. Ellis argues for a moral/ethical dimension to the space of states of the universe in On The Moral Nature of the universe: Cosmology, Theology, and Ethics. (Fortress Press, 1996) with Nancey Murphy.

    Considering the possibilities consistent with time as fundamental, and space emergent only, all possibilities will be realized in infinite time repeatedly and in all variations. We are unique only in this infinitesimal. My creed: This universe, at least, has a God, Creator of Heaven, energy and Spirit, and Creator of Earth, matter and the Son Incarnate, inspired by the Spirit, and born of the Virgin.

    I discovered Ellis as the keynote speaker at the Sixteenth Krakow Methodological Conference, delivering the 2012 Copernicus Center Lecture, "On the nature of cosmology today."

    The keynote
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq8-...4Y0I2&index=15

    The proceedings
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...r_ianG-o24Y0I2
    It is a fallacy to apply statistics to the question of the existance of a Creator. There is only "one" everything. Also, the definition of a Creator is the creator of everything. He's simply side stepping the issue.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 04-14-2015 at 09:22 PM.

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    Well, I certainly got left in the dust quick by those last two posts. I thought I could hold my own in almost any theological discussion, but I see I was mistaken.

    Time to brush myself off, and brush myself up.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    It is a fallacy to apply statistics to the question of the existance of a Creator. [ ... ]
    Which fallacy, formal or informal, would that be?

    Beware the informal fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam, the 'ignorance' here being lack of contrary evidence.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 04-15-2015 at 04:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Which fallacy, formal or informal, would that be?

    Beware the informal fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam, the 'ignorance' here being lack of contrary evidence.
    Exactly. I could claim, "There's a gnome in my backyard. Prove me wrong." Lack of evidence to the contrary is never evidence for the premise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Exactly. I could claim, "There's a gnome in my backyard. Prove me wrong." Lack of evidence to the contrary is never evidence for the premise.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." An assertion of non-existence (as of the gnome god) cannot be sustained without examination of the entire universe of discourse.

    But the larger point is the misunderstanding the significance of the infinity of time. With the deprecation of the various multiverses for lack of causal connections, bouncing cosmologies are gaining favor, big-bang like initiations leading to endings hot or cold and then another initiation. In infinite time, all possibilities are realized. See Poincare Recurrence Time for the flavor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poinca...rrence_theorem

    As to Citizens well made point of the persistence of the discorporate (remember Stranger in a Strange Land!) ego, that is the point of faith - Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia! A principle of quantum physics is that information cannot be destroyed, leads to the Holographic Principle, and I see no exception for the egoist soul. What are saints, angels, cherubim, seraphim and putti but the Christian Fathers attempt to address the issue metaphorically?

    I had great fun learning the significance of the "six winged seraphim," and imagining the origin of their iconic image.

    About Easter Sermons; Martin Luther's are voluminous, clearly understandable and enlightening. On-line too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Does anyone have any links to videos of good Easter sermons from this year?!?!?
    I generally avoid overt religious discussions on these kinds of forums as they have real potential to divide rather than unite. But since you ask specifically....

    I watched two particularly powerful sermons on Christ's grace and resurrection as part of the semi-annual LDS general conference on Easter Sunday. There are some particulars of these sermons that are different than many Christians believe. But I think the overall message should be universally enjoyed and appreciated by all Christians, and even many who are not Christians.

    In each case, the printed transcript is immediately below the video window. But there is a beauty and power in the spoken word that is sometimes lost in just the transcript.

    This sermon discusses specifically the grace of Christ.

    This sermon starts with one of the most beautiful and powerful analogies of Christ's love for us that I've heard.

    Finally, this short video (< 3 minutes) is not a traditional sermon, but a montage of images and thoughts about the Savior.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    I am not a christian and am very agnostic, lately leaning atheist simply to test it out.

    What I do find awesome about this Hebrew carpenter is that he took complicated (laws made complicated by those in charge) and broke them down to simple parables and illustrations so that the common person could easily grasp "the law".

    When I read and look at the history it was a case of the leaders (Pharisees and Saducees) who despised him for being able to make it easy for the common person to understand and showing their hypocrisy who used the state to have him killed. Even the governor didn't want to have him killed under the guise of treason although he caved to avoid trouble with the leaders of Judah.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    What I do find awesome about this Hebrew carpenter is that he took complicated (laws made complicated by those in charge) and broke them down to simple parables and illustrations so that the common person could easily grasp "the law".

    When I read and look at the history it was a case of the leaders (Pharisees and Saducees) who despised him for being able to make it easy for the common person to understand and showing their hypocrisy who used the state to have him killed. Even the governor didn't want to have him killed under the guise of treason although he caved to avoid trouble with the leaders of Judah.
    One of the most common mistakes people make regarding Jesus these days is to try to shoehorn him into some modern political philosophy.

    Conservatives are sure Jesus would be republican (or at least that He wants everyone to belong to the GOP), because abortion is wrong, because He told his disciples to acquire swords, or just because the left is anti-religion. Liberals figure similar things about being a Democrat because Jesus helped the poor, gave them free food, told us not to judge, forgave the woman taken in adultery, told people to keep their prayers private,and told the rich man to sell all he had and give the money to the poor. Libertarians figure they are on the side of angels because Jesus never forced anyone to follow him, it was always a free choice.

    It seems anarchists are prone to the same error. Many who rejected Him at the time did so because they wanted a Messiah to free them from Roman rule, to cast off the unwanted government. Even some who followed Him hoped He would do just that at some point. That wasn't His mission.

    It is like the old parable of 4 or 5 blind men describing an elephant and all of them getting it wrong.

    Even in the political climate of His times, Jesus transcended political and social labels, or at least avoided them. He rendered to Caesar that which was Caesar, even paying taxes (though obtaining the funds to do so miraculously). I am not an expert in ancient Hebrew/Jewish law, but I have been told that Jesus strictly observed "the law" as it had been given to Moses, he never violated a single tenant thereof. He lived a perfect life and so would have had to have perfectly abided the commandments from God. He simply declined to be bound by tradition that had been built up around the law, but did not actually have any force of law.

    So He certainly doesn't fit into any modern, flawed, political philosophy.

    My religious beliefs certainly influence my world view and are part of the reason I'm a conservative republican. But the exact same thing is true of fellow members of my congregation who are democrats and libertarians. This is as it should be. It would be a weak faith or religion that didn't influence our social and political views.

    As an agnostic/atheist, this doesn't apply to you so much. But men of faith need to remember the critical--if subtle--difference between having our social and political views informed by our faith in Jesus and actually thinking that those views represent the only proper embodiment of the Gospel of Christ.

    A man's faith is a most sacred thing and I think it most offensive and counterproductive for any man to question the religious faith, devotion, sincerity, or correctness of any other man based on differences in social or political views or affiliation.

    I see far too much of this among many in my church and political party who are prone to question the religious devotion of Sen. Harry Reid who belongs to the same church, but to the other major political party. I expect that Sen. Reid and I don't agree on very much politically. In many cases I do not know how he squares his religious beliefs with his political conduct. But Jesus expressly forbid me from rendering judgement on matters of another man's religious devotion or standing before God. That is between that man and God; it is not my business.

    I don't suspect you intended to broach any of these topics with your post. And I don't intend to continue in any such political discussions on this thread. For Christians, Easter is the crowning event in the life and ministry of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. It and He are God's gift to us. They have nothing to do with politics or even social theory. They are the answer to the age old question, "If a man die, shall he live again." And the answer is "YES. Most assuredly yes we shall."

    I hope all who believe or hope to believe had a very good Passover, Easter, and/or Pascha, as the case may be.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 04-17-2015 at 12:29 AM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    --deleted by Mod--
    Another ISKCON Hare Krishna sect? Gee Zeus, will they never end? What flavor of koolaide do y'all drink?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-17-2015 at 01:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    [mocking of what others hold sacred redacted]
    It is most unfortunate to see presumably mature adults who belong to a group who so often quote Heinlein about an armed society being a polite society, publicly mocking what others hold sacred when there is zero need to do so.

    Certainly we can and should behave better.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 04-17-2015 at 03:47 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    There are two phrases to Heinlein's dictum. "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." (Beyond This Horizon, Fantasy 1948)
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    It is most unfortunate to see presumably mature adults who belong to a group who so often quote Heinlein about an armed society being a polite society, publicly mocking what others hold sacred when there is zero need to do so.
    Oh, snap!

    Just because someone decides to hold something sacred, suddenly he's immune and others cannot speak their minds? Sounds like a pretty weak argument to me--a fella can either defend why he holds it sacred or he can't. Calling "sacred" is just an attempt to tar the other fella and/or avoid having to make a defense.

    What if I join the KKK and decide to hold the doctrine of white supremacy sacred? Ha! I win! I declare white supremacy sacred to me! You can't criticize me! Nya, nya, nah, nyaa!!

    <phfft>

    Who cares if somebody heaves harsh opposing views into a thread on Easter. Dang it! Wasn't forgiveness one of Christ's messages? How about tolerance? How about just ignoring the poster, or using it as an opportunity to refute him, the refutation maybe winning a soul here and there who maybe hadn't thought about it that way?
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-17-2015 at 07:37 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    my post didn't violate rule 6.
    I understand that posts can be deleted for any reason but I prefer honesty about why they are deleted.
    Also for the sake of retaining respectability I hope you are so overly sensitive to jokes about all religions.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    my post didn't violate rule 6.
    I understand that posts can be deleted for any reason but I prefer honesty about why they are deleted.
    Also for the sake of retaining respectability I hope you are so overly sensitive to jokes about all religions.
    Exerpted from rule #6 - .....bashing of groups of people based upon......religion

    You capitalized G~d twice, that makes it a proper noun, name.

    Even if intended to be humorous, considered it very poor taste, mocking even, on a thread about a day very special to Christians.

    Overly sensitive? Nope, but yes I am equally intolerant of less than thoughtful remarks about other beliefs/religions, including Islam wherein some of the people have become our enemies and others have not.

    BTW - when someone questions my decisions by PM, I respond in kind. When a question is raised on open forum, I reply accordingly so that others may understand. You received neither reprimand nor infraction points, so I think it might be better to just be a little more sensitive to what is said and where - no more intended than that. I bear you no animosity at all.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-17-2015 at 08:18 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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