• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Easter celebration

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Oh, snap!

Just because someone decides to hold something sacred, suddenly he's immune and others cannot speak their minds? Sounds like a pretty weak argument to me--a fella can either defend why he holds it sacred or he can't. Calling "sacred" is just an attempt to tar the other fella and/or avoid having to make a defense.

What if I join the KKK and decide to hold the doctrine of white supremacy sacred? Ha! I win! I declare white supremacy sacred to me! You can't criticize me! Nya, nya, nah, nyaa!!

<phfft>

Who cares if somebody heaves harsh opposing views into a thread on Easter. Dang it! Wasn't forgiveness one of Christ's messages? How about tolerance? How about just ignoring the poster, or using it as an opportunity to refute him, the refutation maybe winning a soul here and there who maybe hadn't thought about it that way?

Beat me to it!

You missed his because his belief is positive there is more truth to it than if you don't believe in a god because that is a negative......pretty funny stuff.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
my post didn't violate rule 6.
I understand that posts can be deleted for any reason but I prefer honesty about why they are deleted.
Also for the sake of retaining respectability I hope you are so overly sensitive to jokes about all religions.


Yea, seems some take their "faith" so seriously that all things contrary to it are insults. Even jokes. I doubt this was moderated with out someone hitting the tattle button.
 

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
Which fallacy, formal or informal, would that be?

Beware the informal fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam, the 'ignorance' here being lack of contrary evidence.

Sorry. I didn't give your post the consideration it deserved and my response was quickly formed. Let me attempt to be a bit more clear.

First speaking to time as "fundamental", if one is willing to entertain a "god" that is not a creator of time, but a mere product then I think one misses the mark of defining "God" as THE Creator.

Secondly, the phrase "this universe" is the fallacy. The word "universe" means "everything"... or, um, meant "everything"... until science found it may be wrong, again, about what "everything" means. So instead of reclassifying what we thought was "everything" into sub-universe classifications, it brings us multiple universes. Multiple "everythings".
 
Last edited:

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
Yea, seems some take their "faith" so seriously that all things contrary to it are insults. Even jokes. I doubt this was moderated with out someone hitting the tattle button.

First let me say that I have the utmost respect for Grape and the decisions he has to make so, this is no slight in his direction.

I didn't get a chance to read the deleted post but, considering it came from a respected member of this forum, I'm sure it would've been a good laugh. Lord knows I've dished it out... ;)
 
Last edited:

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
Yea, seems some take their "faith" so seriously that all things contrary to it are insults. Even jokes. I doubt this was moderated with out someone hitting the tattle button.

When I reflect on my own beliefs, the closest thing to a "belief system" I have is the NAP (though I was raised crazy-cultish-baptist).... I've been laughed at and made fun of for being libertarian but it's never bothered me. But I have to remember that people can sometimes get quite irrational about religion (though I suspect you're correct in that it wasn't the moderator but someone complaining in secret). People have killed for a long long time simply over their religion.
 
Last edited:

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
What if I join the KKK and decide to hold the doctrine of white supremacy sacred?

Reductio ad absurdum. Illicit process, major.

Who cares if somebody heaves harsh opposing views into a thread on Easter. Dang it! Wasn't forgiveness one of Christ's messages? How about tolerance?

Just because Christ preached forgiveness doesn't give others the right to lean on that to the breaking point. Your line of thinking includes, "Ha! I raped your daughter, but aren't you a Christian? Don't press charges, or you're a hypocrite..."

Respect, on the other hand is universal. I can respect another person regardless of whether or not I agree with his religion or creed. Trashing another person's faith/creed, particularly on a day they revere as central to their beliefs, is disrespectful.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
When I reflect on my own beliefs, the closest thing to a "belief system" I have is the NAP (though I was raised crazy-cultish-baptist).... I've been laughed at and made fun of for being libertarian but it's never bothered me. But I have to remember that people can sometimes get quite irrational about religion (though I suspect you're correct in that it wasn't the moderator but someone complaining in secret). People have killed for a long long time simply over their religion.

Same here. Grew up as a JW, wanna talk about a group that gets bashed.
I think some who can't take a good ribbing and a little criticism at the sake of their beliefs maybe are not as firm their beliefs are the truth they think it is.
NAP seems to be the core of the Jewish Carpenters teaching too. The whole do unto others as you would yourself, Love your neighbor as yourself.
 
Last edited:

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Reductio ad absurdum. Illicit process, major.



Just because Christ preached forgiveness doesn't give others the right to lean on that to the breaking point. Your line of thinking includes, "Ha! I raped your daughter, but aren't you a Christian? Don't press charges, or you're a hypocrite..."

Respect, on the other hand is universal. I can respect another person regardless of whether or not I agree with his religion or creed. Trashing another person's faith/creed, particularly on a day they revere as central to their beliefs, is disrespectful.

Wow Rape = a joke?

Nobody trashed the belief on the day.

Even if they did, isn't that their belief and you should respect their belief?
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
LOL The belief in spontaneous generation was an early struggle with the concept of causality, as in cause and effect. This goes on today, exemplified by belief in the multiverse, though it is not causally connected to our universe by definition. The speed of light limitation on cause and information limits and defines our universe.

The Standard Models of particle physics and cosmology, and of theology, are all equally Popper unfalsifiable. We have advanced all the way from the infinite regression of "It's turtles all the way down" to "It's quarks, quarks and gluons all the way down." See the Munchausen Trilemma.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

I declare this holy turtle day, how insensitive of you to counter this holy belief! :p

On a serious note that is a great point. It is a long history of human struggle to understand.
 
Last edited:

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
The NAP per se is dated from Rand and Rothbard and is susceptible to criticism, as by Matt Zwolinsky (with Libertarianism: A Bleeding Heart History in preparation under contract to Princeton University Press).

Everything is susceptible to criticism. What stands up best with the least problems to the criticism is the path I will choose.

Rand not a big fan of although she did have many axioms, she left really no room for charity and I found her fairly cold.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Same here. Grew up as a JW, wanna talk about a group that gets bashed.
I think some who can't take a good ribbing and a little criticism at the sake of their beliefs maybe are not as firm their beliefs are the truth they think it is.
NAP seems to be the core of the Jewish Carpenters teaching too. The whole do unto others as you would yourself, Love your neighbor as yourself.

Siddartha Guatama's, too--Bhudda.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP Rand not a big fan of although she did have many axioms, she left really no room for charity and I found her fairly cold.

It seemed to me she hanged her hat on self-interest, completely ignoring a number of other areas that are almost too easily demonstrated, or twisting them back into self-interest.

Whereas, the Nazarene made thinking about and looking out for one's fellows a part of His ministry. Basically, a call or reminder to dig up and dust off our native interest/concern for our fellow human beings. In a way, His whole ministry arose from a concern for others.
 
Last edited:

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
It seemed to me she hanged her hat on self-interest, completely ignoring a number of other areas that are almost too easily demonstrated, or twisting them back into self-interest.

Whereas, the Nazarene made thinking about and looking out for one's fellows a part of his ministry. Basically, a call or reminder to dig up and dust off our native interest/concern for our fellow human beings. In a way, His whole ministry arose from a concern for others.

Thats a good way of putting it. Although self interest in itself can and does lead us to look after the interest of others. Was it Bastiat that stated the baker doesn't bake bread for us out of the goodness of his heart. She seemed to lack empathy for others which is a basic human emotion to most.

What is interesting to is that while the Nazarene emphasized concern for others, he also seemed to respect property rights and a free market, driving out cronyism from the temple, and showing in a parable of a landowner at harvest that the early workers had no place to complain about getting paid the same as the late comers. The value of labor grew and was worth the higher price the later in harvest it became.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Sounds like the path of least resistance. Criticism is like water rushing clear down a mountain stream flushing the muddy corruption. I am the rock standing for my principles while I can, resistant to the end.

Au contraire. In my opinion it often isn't the path of least resistance to let go of long held beliefs and superstitions for what stands up to criticism. Well we could be saying similar thoughts with a different perspective.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Thats a good way of putting it. Although self interest in itself can and does lead us to look after the interest of others. Was it Bastiat that stated the baker doesn't bake bread for us out of the goodness of his heart. She seemed to lack empathy for others which is a basic human emotion to most.

What is interesting to is that while the Nazarene emphasized concern for others, he also seemed to respect property rights and a free market, driving out cronyism from the temple, and showing in a parable of a landowner at harvest that the early workers had no place to complain about getting paid the same as the late comers. The value of labor grew and was worth the higher price the later in harvest it became.

I think this is a bit of a failing on the philosophers' part. A little blindness regarding perhaps finer points of human nature. For example, I would render it this way: the baker doesn't bake bread for us solely out of the goodness of his heart.

Obviously the baker has to eat, but that does not exclude him exercising concern for others or contributing to their welfare. A hint could be gleaned from the baker who donates day-old bread to charity. Now, if he were a lower sort of fellow, he'd make his donation to look good in the community. And, there are probably plenty who help others because it makes them feel good, meaning the only reason they do it is because they want to feel good for having done it. But, I'll bet there are plenty of bakers who donate simply because they don't want to see anybody hungry.

I think some philosophers can't see that it is possible for multiple interests to align. For example, the veterinarian who loves animals but got into the work because she also wanted kids to be happy with healthier pets. Income for self. Helps kids. Helps animals. Multiple interests/concerns coincide.

I consider that human nature includes the capability of being simply concerned about others. Kinda of a, "OK. Got everything in my life under control for the moment. What's next. Oh, Sam needs some help building that deck."
 

Rusty Young Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,548
Location
Árida Zona
I think this is a bit of a failing on the philosophers' part. A little blindness regarding perhaps finer points of human nature. For example, I would render it this way: the baker doesn't bake bread for us solely out of the goodness of his heart.

Obviously the baker has to eat, but that does not exclude him exercising concern for others or contributing to their welfare. A hint could be gleaned from the baker who donates day-old bread to charity. Now, if he were a lower sort of fellow, he'd make his donation to look good in the community. And, there are probably plenty who help others because it makes them feel good, meaning the only reason they do it is because they want to feel good for having done it. But, I'll bet there are plenty of bakers who donate simply because they don't want to see anybody hungry.

In my limited experience, you can tell the first apart for their propensity to have an audience or make it widely known they are donating bread.
You can tell the second apart for their giving only what they can easily spare in time and resources (feel goods without the inconveniences).
The last is most difficult to tell apart because they do not plan for an audience to see them give, nor do they let on about how much they give and how far out of their way they go to give.

Back on topic: A measure of "selfishness" is what we would call self-interest. As I build myself up, I can help more people or provide a greater assistance to a few. The baker who can expand his business will be able to provide for his family and have coin left over, not to mention the number of unsold loaves left over each day.

I think some philosophers can't see that it is possible for multiple interests to align. For example, the veterinarian who loves animals but got into the work because she also wanted kids to be happy with healthier pets. Income for self. Helps kids. Helps animals. Multiple interests/concerns coincide.

I consider that human nature includes the capability of being simply concerned about others. Kinda of a, "OK. Got everything in my life under control for the moment. What's next. Oh, Sam needs some help building that deck."

This may be the best explanation/example I've heard. Thank you.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
SNIPThis may be the best explanation/example I've heard. Thank you.

You're welcome.

A few more examples.

The firefighter who enters the burning building to save the child. The commuter who jumps onto the subway tracks to pull away the fallen cripple when the train is entering the station. The parent who sacrifices themselves for their child. The soldier who throws himself on a grenade.



The carpenter who let himself be nailed to a cross.
 
Last edited:

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
Reductio ad absurdum. Illicit process, major.



Just because Christ preached forgiveness doesn't give others the right to lean on that to the breaking point. Your line of thinking includes, "Ha! I raped your daughter, but aren't you a Christian? Don't press charges, or you're a hypocrite..."

Respect, on the other hand is universal. I can respect another person regardless of whether or not I agree with his religion or creed. Trashing another person's faith/creed, particularly on a day they revere as central to their beliefs, is disrespectful.

I know the thread has moved on from this, but I'd like to add one thing. Christ's crucifixion was disrespectful to him. If someone crucified me, I'd feel disrespected. I think maybe the point of Jesus' s death is to show that we're quite a disrespectful bunch. I dunno... maybe it's just me.

Why in the world would I get offended by someone disrespecting my "reverence" of a day intended to remind me of just how disrespectful we can be. At least I'd know the offender understands one side of the issue.
 
Top