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Thread: Civil Asset Forfeiture is evil

  1. #1
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Civil Asset Forfeiture is evil

    Exhibit A:

    Retired Westmoreland deputy in court for allegedly selling seized firearms
    A retired Westmoreland County deputy sheriff was in federal court Thursday for allegedly selling firearms seized in criminal cases that he was supposed to be destroying.

    ...

    David Schiller, an assistant U.S. attorney, told Novak on Thursday that the case involved more than 15 firearms. Hinson’s lawyer, David L. Carlson, told the judge that his client said he has done nothing wrong.

    ...

    The cooperating individual said the friend got the weapons — a .38-caliber revolver, .32-caliber revolver and a 9mm semi-automatic handgun — from a man identified only as a second cooperating individual who said he got them from Hinson.

    According to the affidavit, two of the guns appeared to have been inscribed with numbers used by forensic laboratories to mark evidence. The Virginia Department of Forensic Science confirmed the weapons had been examined in its laboratory, one in 2009 for the Colonial Beach Police Department and the other in 2011 for the Westmoreland County Sheriff’s Office.

    The weapons were turned over to the ATF. The first individual then bought a KelTec 9mm rifle with obliterated serial numbers from his friend. The second cooperating individual said that weapon also came from Hinson, according to the affidavit.

    In January, the first individual was given four more handguns, two with obliterated serial numbers, by the second. Later in January the first individual bought four 12-gauge shotguns all with obliterated serial numbers. Some of those weapons also appeared to have forensic lab numbers, alleged the ATF.
    So, why won't the Guv clean this up? Oh right, he always supports law enforcement.

    Interesting how, if your weapon gets stolen, then used in a crime and 'seized' it's going to get inscribed (defaced? vandalized?) by our public servants before (possibly) being returned to its rightful, lawful owner.

    Good to know.

  2. #2
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    I'm not seeing the connection to civil asset forfeiture. Did I miss it somewhere in the linked article?
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-17-2015 at 02:44 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I'm not seeing the connection to civil asset forfeiture. Did I miss it somewhere in the linked article?
    I'm referring to asset forfeiture, Chapter 22.2 of Title 19.2 of the Code of Virginia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    I'm referring to asset forfeiture, Chapter 22.2 of Title 19.2 of the Code of Virginia.
    Thanks. I'll look it up.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    You'll want to look up HB1278, sponsored by Del. Mark Cole, R-Spotsylvania. Apparently it was killed in committee earlier this year.

    You folks need to contact your representatives, can't let New Mexico have all the glory, can ya?

  6. #6
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    You'll want to look up HB1287, sponsored by Del. Mark Cole, R-Spotsylvania. Apparently it was killed in committee earlier this year.

    You folks need to contact your representatives, can't let New Mexico have all the glory, can ya?
    Thanks! That is what I was really referring to. We had a chance, but that chance was ruined by Senate RINOS.

    Cop Block had a harsh assessment of what happened:

    The Problem with VA Senator Bill “Police State” Carrico
    That bill is HB1287 by Delegate Mark Cole. It passed the House 92-6 and was sent to the Senate.

    In the Senate it passed the Courts of Justice Committee 12-2, and here’s where the games begin. It was sent to the Senate Finance Committee. Let’s be clear – this bill wasn’t sent to a House Appropriations committee or any other finance committee in the House before being voted on for final passage. This bill was sent to the Senate Finance committee to die.

    Being sent to the Senate Finance Committee does one very important thing – it admits that they consider this a financial bill and not a bill about due process, even though this bill is entirely about due process. They want your money and assets, don’t care how they get them, and are admitting that policing for profit is important to them and that this bill might get in the way of that. Guess who also stands to lose a lot of money if civil asset forfeitures are required to have a conviction before they can happen? If you said the Virginia State Police, you are right!
    Note how the LEO Lobby did rather well this Session. As public servants, they appear to be too powerful.

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    But it's making the bad guys fund local good guys, right? So the property taxes can remain lower? And it only hurts people we don't like, right? (Please note the clever use of subtle satire.)
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    one thing that troubled me in reading the article is that the Forensic Lab inscribes figures on a firearm that is held in evidence. What happens if the person is found innocent and is entitled to get his firearm back. It has been defaced/damaged. God forbid it be a rare or firearm of great family significance.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    But it's making the bad guys fund local good guys, right? So the property taxes can remain lower? And it only hurts people we don't like, right? (Please note the clever use of subtle satire.)
    Subtle satire duly noted, so I'll only say that criminal forfeiture would fund the local good guys while leaving the guys we like (innocent civilians) not subject to civil forfeiture.

  10. #10
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrearick View Post
    one thing that troubled me in reading the article is that the Forensic Lab inscribes figures on a firearm that is held in evidence. What happens if the person is found innocent and is entitled to get his firearm back. It has been defaced/damaged. God forbid it be a rare or firearm of great family significance.
    File a claim against the cop shop for irrevocable damage to your property. They will deny the claim, then you file a claim with your insurance company and let the cops keep the firearm. You may get a claim check, then again you may not.

    There are these things called tags that can be attached to evidence that will not mar the firearm and unless a cop removes the tag it will be without question identified as evidence.

    I had a cheap gun confiscated, by a cop, for a short duration, for everyone's safety and when the cop desired to return my gun back to me I said, nope, you keep it. He protested by stating that he could not take the gun because he must return it as indicated under state law. I told him took it once "under state law," ran the number, and he can keep it. This happened on my farm in SC and ironically by a 2nd cousin of mine. The look on his face...too funny. I felt a wee bit for him, he was only doing the job his is required to do...no? And I treat him so terribly.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    File a claim against the cop shop for irrevocable damage to your property. They will deny the claim, then you file a claim with your insurance company and let the cops keep the firearm. You may get a claim check, then again you may not.

    There are these things called tags that can be attached to evidence that will not mar the firearm and unless a cop removes the tag it will be without question identified as evidence.

    I had a cheap gun confiscated, by a cop, for a short duration, for everyone's safety and when the cop desired to return my gun back to me I said, nope, you keep it. He protested by stating that he could not take the gun because he must return it as indicated under state law. I told him took it once "under state law," ran the number, and he can keep it. This happened on my farm in SC and ironically by a 2nd cousin of mine. The look on his face...too funny. I felt a wee bit for him, he was only doing the job his is required to do...no? And I treat him so terribly.
    I had a smith taken for a month once. When I got it back I traded it at the next gun show for a shotgun. Sold the shotgun and bought a 1911. Recently sold the 1911..all ftf.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    In Virginia tort claims are rather routine and fairly regularly settled - according the the schedule of depreciation of I-forget-which insurance institute.

    Want tp prove a higher valuation? Better have your ducks and expert witnesses in a row and be prepared for multiple continuances while they research what your experts say in order to refute their assertions. Risk Management is not going to come in prepared - they will just ask for time to check on your claim and look for ways to contradict it, then go back to court and make your experts refute their refutation - on the spot.

    And as for filing a claim with your insurance company? Do you have full replacement value and a rider that covers firearms? Even with that your insurance company is going to claim that the damage was not the result of an accident but the willful act of the State - so they are not liable and tell you to go sue the State.

    I'd rather file a claim for emotional trauma based on the damage to your mostest favoritest firearm and the axcaberation of that trauma when you find you cannot find an exact replacement.

    stay safe.
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  13. #13
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrearick View Post
    one thing that troubled me in reading the article is that the Forensic Lab inscribes figures on a firearm that is held in evidence. What happens if the person is found innocent and is entitled to get his firearm back. It has been defaced/damaged. God forbid it be a rare or firearm of great family significance.
    I pointed that out as the OP. I consider it vandalism.

  14. #14
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    I pointed that out as the OP. I consider it vandalism.
    It is.
    Its already inscribed with a serial number.

  15. #15
    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    I pointed that out as the OP. I consider it vandalism.
    Very true. My comment was meant to be an "I am outraged also...." I agree with you and find it criminal and don't know how they can get away with it.

  16. #16
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    More press coverage on the asset forfeiture issue.

    Editorial by Jason Pelt, running for Commonwealth's Attorney in Stafford County.


    TFred

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    More press coverage on the asset forfeiture issue.

    Editorial by Jason Pelt, running for Commonwealth's Attorney in Stafford County.


    TFred
    Very pro stance from Jason Pelt.

    The senate in not passing this bill, provided McAwful with with a personally claimable win/win situation = he tried to approve it, but the legislature wouldn't allow him, knowing the senate wouldn't pass what he in reality didn't want. Hate politcal double dealings - bet for losing ..... and win.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-28-2015 at 06:46 AM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    More press coverage on the asset forfeiture issue.

    Editorial by Jason Pelt, running for Commonwealth's Attorney in Stafford County.


    TFred
    Excellent information - thank you!

    More about Mr. Pelt:

    Two contend for Stafford Commonwealth's Attorney

    Note what the incumbent promises:
    The race for Stafford County commonwealth’s attorney is shaping up to be the same matchup as four years ago.

    Local defense attorney Jason Pelt has again thrown his hat in the race against current Commonwealth’s Attorney Eric Olsen.

    Pelt and Olsen will both be seeking the Republican nomination for the general election in November. They met in the GOP primary four years ago, as well.

    If elected to his second term, Olsen says, he will continue the tradition of effective law enforcement and working closely with the Stafford Sheriff’s Office to ensure justice and keep Stafford safe.

    “We have a very great partnership with the Sheriff’s Office and that will continue,” Olsen said.

    Pelt said he believes Olsen’s office hasn’t been effective enough.

    ...

    “In this case, the current commonwealth’s attorney decided mental illness should be handled with a long jail sentence,” Pelt said. “Stafford County needs a prosecuting attorney that enforces our laws but also protects the freedoms that we hold sacred.”
    I would prefer a Commonwealth's Attorney that keeps the cops at arm's length, because some cops break the law.

    From Pelt's facebook page:
    After 5 years as a Marine Corps JAG Prosecutor, I started practicing criminal defense law in Stafford County in 2005. Our family of four childen live in the Brooke area of Stafford and we attend Stafford Baptist Church.
    Served in JAG!

    Now, where does he stand on the important issue of the RKBA?

    Well, he has his own web site.
    Last edited by Repeater; 04-28-2015 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Added FB link

  19. #19
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Jason Pelt SUPPORTS OC!

    Clear and unequivocal:

    #‎get2knowpelt‬
    April 23 at 12:00am

    Strong Supporter of the 2nd Amendment

    My interest in firearms came from my father and grandfather. My grandfather was a WWII veteran and farmer in Florida. My Father was a Navy pilot and had military firearms training. They both taught me how to shoot and how to safely handle firearms. My High School actually had an Olympic Style Shooting Team were I competed in regional matches. Then it was off to Marine Corps Weapons Training Battalion at Parris Island, S.C. where I fired my first M-16A2. I remember the very first shot – yes I qualified expert. During my time in the Corps I fired just about every weapons system in the armory from pistols to the .50 cal BMG. When I left the Marine Corps I became interested in gun laws in Virginia. Over the years I have assisted many clients in regaining their right to possess firearms. I also defend gun related offenses such as a client that shot a dog attacking his family and then was criminally charged with unlawful discharge of a weapon. I also enjoin shooting and building weapons. I just finished my first AR pistol build with the assistance of SSG Tactical located in Fredericksburg. I support the rights of Virginians to open carry weapons and support concealed carry legislation. I strongly believe that the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed and that defending that right is essential to our freedom. The below picture is my 1911 grouping at 25 yards.


    Also, see how he met his wife.

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    ^ ^ We can help him with those fliers ^ ^

    Trigger control and grip/anticipating recoil
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Is it just me, or do those look like .22 holes in the target?

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

  22. #22
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Really big .22s...
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  23. #23
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Really big .22s...
    It doesnt look like 22 caliber holes,,, or 45 either...
    Might be a 38 Super!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    It doesnt look like 22 caliber holes,,, or 45 either...
    Might be a 38 Super!
    Whatever caliber, they are round nosed - not paper punching, semi-wad cutter target loads.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Know your Virginia gun rights event - June 03rd

    It seems Jason Pelt really likes to discuss gun rights, including open carry. How refreshing for a candidate for Commonwealth's Attorney.

    Know your Virginia Gun Rights, featuring Ed Levine.

    It will be at the England Run Library, so carry is welcome or at least it's legal.

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