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Thread: Traffic stops canít last too long or go too far. SCOTUS Rodriguez v. US

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    Traffic stops canít last too long or go too far. SCOTUS Rodriguez v. US

    The Court issued a seemingly simple rule today in Rodriguez v. United States: “A seizure for a traffic violation justifies a police investigation of that violation” – not more — and “authority for the seizure . . . ends when tasks tied to the traffic infraction are – or reasonably should have been—completed.” Because being stopped by police officers for traffic violations is a common occurrence for us all (not just drug dealers), this six-to-three decision probably gives some (small) comfort to many. Traffic stops have to be reasonably short, and unless there is reasonable suspicion of some other crime, officers can’t use the stop as a subterfuge for extraneous investigation. Most specifically, says Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s opinion for the Court, officers can’t prolong a traffic stop just to perform a dog-sniffing drug search.
    http://www.scotusblog.com/2015/04/op...ra-dog-sniffs/
    “A traffic stop becomes unlawful if prolonged beyond the time in fact needed to complete all traffic-based inquiries,” Ginsburg said.

    Police are typically allowed to inspect a driver’s license, ask for registration and proof of insurance and check for any outstanding warrants as all of those actions are geared towards ensuring that vehicles are safely operated, according to Ginsburg.

    While “an officer…may conduct certain unrelated checks during an otherwise lawful traffic stop,” Ginsburg held, “a dog sniff, unlike the routine measures just mentioned, is not an ordinary incident of a traffic stop.”

    “A dog sniff, unlike those stock inquiries, lacks the same tie to roadway safety,” said Ginsburg.
    http://thefreethoughtproject.com/bre...e-court-rules/

    A blind pig snuffles a truffle. Let's keep the old girl around.

    Wisconsin Statutes ß 345.23  Officer's action after arrest without a warrant.
    If a person is arrested without a warrant for the violation of a traffic regulation, the arresting officer shall issue a citation under s. 345.11, and in addition:
    (1) May release the person; or
    (2) Shall release the person when he or she:
    (a) Makes a deposit under s. 345.26; or
    (c) Deposits the person's valid Wisconsin operator's license with the officer. If the license is deposited with the officer, the officer shall issue to the licensee a receipt which shall be valid as a driver's license through the date specified on the receipt, which shall be the same as the court appearance date, and the officer shall, at the earliest possible time prior to the court appearance date, deposit the license with the court.
    (d) Presents a guaranteed arrest bond certificate under s. 345.61.
    (3) Shall, if the alleged violator is not released under sub. (1) or (2), bring him or her without unreasonable delay before a judge or, for ordinance violations, before a municipal judge in the county in which the violation was alleged to have been committed.
    (4) Shall, if the alleged violator is released under sub. (1) or (2), specify on the citation a return date which may not be more than 90 days after the issue date.

    I wrote in part to a legal scholar "I gently protest what may have been your nudge down a slippery slope. You wrote that traffic stops are a common occurrence for all. I believe that is the premise for intrusive pretextural detentions."
    Last edited by Nightmare; 04-22-2015 at 07:24 AM.
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    Volokh Conspiracy: Police canít delay traffic stops to investigate crimes absent ...

    The Supreme Court handed down a notable Fourth Amendment ruling this morning in Rodriguez v. United States, holding that the Fourth Amendment does not allow the police to extend the duration of a traffic stop without reasonable suspicion, even for just a “de minimis” amount of time, for reasons unrelated to vehicle and driver safety.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/v...e-court-rules/

    Still, in all the commentary thus far perused, officer safety has not been addressed. Traffic safety, roadway safety, and here driver safety.

    More from VC -
    Similarly, it’s important that the Court distinguished Terry stops from traffic stops. There is caselaw on the proper length of Terry stops, but I read Rodriguez as saying that the proper length of traffic stops is a different animal. That’s doctrinally quite important.
    http://fourthamendment.com/?p=16869

    ETA 0700: Lisa Soronen mentions officer safety.
    http://www.imla.org/blog/2015/04/get...lito-suggests/
    Last edited by Nightmare; 04-22-2015 at 08:00 AM.
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    Could be a good thing...that cops may ignore, as they see fit, as usual, and "leave it up to a judge to figure things out." The cop is well assured that little in the way, if anything at all, will come from his "misunderstanding" of the law that will actually affect him personally/financially.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    LOL America Swings (Like a Pendulum Do)!

    A good bit of the commentary has suggested an inflection in the path of the pendulum of rights.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    It's disturbing that their were 3 dissenting judges.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    It's disturbing that their were 3 dissenting judges.
    I'm surprised that it was not 5-4 with Roberts in the minority.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    While the mainstream media ignores this sea change, the enforcers will remain willfully ignorant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    While the mainstream media ignores this sea change, the enforcers will remain willfully ignorant.
    Not ignernt...unconvinced that current "policy" is a bad thing. So, until we get sued, keep on keeping on.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Would it be too much to ask that we not assume most cops or most police departments are criminals, looking to violate as many rights as possible?

    Will there be violations of rights in the future? Sure. Will it require some tossed evidence, lost cases, and lawsuits to correct that behavior? In a few cases, probably.

    But there are also departments that do their level best to stay apprised and keep their officers educated of relevant case law, and to adjust their procedures as necessary to comply.

    The good apples need to do more to root out the bad apples. I'm also of the opinion that government is generally too intrusive into our lives.

    But could we focus a bit more on being pro-OC/RKBA and bit less on seeing how close to the line we can push bashing of cops?

    Assuming the other guy is malicious is not the best way to make progress in most cases.

    Charles
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Would it be too much to ask that we not assume most cops or most police departments are criminals, looking to violate as many rights as possible?

    Will there be violations of rights in the future? Sure. Will it require some tossed evidence, lost cases, and lawsuits to correct that behavior? In a few cases, probably.

    But there are also departments that do their level best to stay apprised and keep their officers educated of relevant case law, and to adjust their procedures as necessary to comply.

    The good apples need to do more to root out the bad apples. I'm also of the opinion that government is generally too intrusive into our lives.

    But could we focus a bit more on being pro-OC/RKBA and bit less on seeing how close to the line we can push bashing of cops?

    Assuming the other guy is malicious is not the best way to make progress in most cases.

    Charles
    Excellent point(s).

    Why would such a case come before the court(s) in the first place.

    Cops get it right far more often than they get it wrong. Follow the law, be professional, and don't go fishing...not too much to ask, is it?

    Please see the quote from William Blackstone.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Would it be too much to ask that we not assume most cops or most police departments are criminals, looking to violate as many rights as possible?

    Will there be violations of rights in the future? Sure. Will it require some tossed evidence, lost cases, and lawsuits to correct that behavior? In a few cases, probably.

    But there are also departments that do their level best to stay apprised and keep their officers educated of relevant case law, and to adjust their procedures as necessary to comply.

    The good apples need to do more to root out the bad apples. I'm also of the opinion that government is generally too intrusive into our lives.

    But could we focus a bit more on being pro-OC/RKBA and bit less on seeing how close to the line we can push bashing of cops?

    Assuming the other guy is malicious is not the best way to make progress in most cases.

    Charles
    Are you all of a sudden a moderator?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Are you all of a sudden a moderator?
    Self moderation, grasshopper. It's a "thing" around here.

    Although UB may have himself slipped the rails re: cop bashing taking place. And I note with distinction the lack of commentary about how the 99% of good cops respond/deal with the 1% that seem to give all cops a bad name.

    stay safe.
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    Self moderation is moderation of one's self.

    If cops would self-moderate we wouldn't have to hold them accountable. It's not cop bashing when there is a specific case cited. Anyone who's been here longer than a month or two should know this by now.

    Cite to 99%/1%?

    So many bad apples...maybe it's the tree and not the apples?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Self moderation is moderation of one's self. [ ... ] So many bad apples...maybe it's the tree and not the apples?
    Maybe it's not the Garden but the snake?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Are you all of a sudden a moderator?
    it seems to be an attempt to label any thread "cop bashing" if it contains information of any cop doing something wrong.
    He may not be a moderator but his accusations do recieve attention.
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    I say leave the moderator's job to Grapeshot. He does a very good job discerning factual statements from garbage conjecture or false narratives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    i seem to sense piper is a stanch man in blue supporter against those 'isolated' pesky egregious events showing citizens deaths or spinal cords allegedly severed and considers them but aberrations and not the systematic pervasive presence which is eroded everyone's rights across the board.

    what should worry folk, what is actually going unreported per se, as this systemic erosion becomes more and more adversarial across the board.

    whilst some might shake their head in disbelief at my statement as they may feel it contradicts my previous postings: i truly feel the majority of LEs do not come to work each day to screw over citizens and do act professionally in their duties in their interaction and conduct with law biding citizens. HOWEVER, these same LEs work in an environment where it is not conducive to or they do not police their own and therefore are becoming of the belief, organizationally, the whole group are omnipotent in all they do!!

    discussion of the egregiously reported events is not cop bashing but rather serves to reiterate us to examine the symptom to assure we do not get snared into the same snare. i for one appreciate succinct discussion(s) of the existing law and its nuances, so i can learn, but only to a point!

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 04-22-2015 at 03:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    i seem to sense piper is a stanch man in blue supporter against those 'isolated' pesky egregious events showing citizens deaths or spinal cords allegedly severed and considers them but aberrations and not the systematic pervasive presence which is eroded everyone's rights across the board.

    what should worry folk, what is actually going unreported per se, as this systemic erosion becomes more and more adversarial across the board.

    whilst some might shake their head in disbelief at my statement as they may feel it contradicts my previous postings: i truly feel the majority of LEs do not come to work each day to screw over citizens and do act professionally in their duties in their interaction and conduct with law biding citizens. HOWEVER, these same LEs work in an environment where it is not conducive to or they do not police their own and therefore are becoming of the belief, organizationally, the whole group are omnipotent in all they do!!

    discussion of the egregiously reported events is not cop bashing but rather serves to reiterate us to examine the symptom to assure we do not get snared into the same snare. i for one appreciate succinct discussion(s) of the existing law and its nuances, so i can learn, but only to a point!

    ipse
    +1
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    i seem to sense piper is a stanch man in blue supporter against those 'isolated' pesky egregious events showing citizens deaths or spinal cords allegedly severed and considers them but aberrations and not the systematic pervasive presence which is eroded everyone's rights across the board.

    what should worry folk, what is actually going unreported per se, as this systemic erosion becomes more and more adversarial across the board.

    whilst some might shake their head in disbelief at my statement as they may feel it contradicts my previous postings: i truly feel the majority of LEs do not come to work each day to screw over citizens and do act professionally in their duties in their interaction and conduct with law biding citizens. HOWEVER, these same LEs work in an environment where it is not conducive to or they do not police their own and therefore are becoming of the belief, organizationally, the whole group are omnipotent in all they do!!

    discussion of the egregiously reported events is not cop bashing but rather serves to reiterate us to examine the symptom to assure we do not get snared into the same snare. i for one appreciate succinct discussion(s) of the existing law and its nuances, so i can learn, but only to a point!

    ipse
    We're in luck. A veteran defense attorney was an assistant prosecutor in the 1970's. He makes an observation in his blog post:

    "First, this case is also emblematic of the total disregard of the Fourth Amendment courts give cars. And I confess to that thinking when puzzling through it as an assistant prosecutor in the 70’s. The police sure did, even then. But, a car is not a moving target subject to search on a whim, and Rodriguez makes that point for sure; finally."

    http://fourthamendment.com/?p=16899

    Don't blame me if you lose sleep after reading a little bit of his home page.

    He does have a great overall idea for his blog, though. If I understand, he's published a law book that is now in its fifth or sixth edition. The blog is the on-going updates to the book. While I cannot afford the hundreds of dollars for the book, I've found the blog to be of immense value in keeping pretty up to date on the destruction of the 4th Amendment by the courts. Of course, most of the time a court lets things slip further down the slippery slope, that court is just ratifying or formalizing the destructive tactics of police that brought the issue before the court in the first place.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-22-2015 at 03:53 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    In a single sentence, Stern notes that it’s possible that the Chief Justice simply thought the two cases presented different legal issues. But then Stern settles into his real theory: Something happened to Chief Justice Roberts between Heien in December and Rodriguez in April that fundamentally changed his view of the police. Roberts must have had an “epiphany.” And we need to figure out what caused the epiphany. Here’s Stern: "It could be that in the last few months, Roberts got pulled over—apparently for the first time in his life—and finally grasps how fraught such encounters often are." More from Hall's FourthAmendment.com http://fourthamendment.com/?p=16916 from Orin Kerr at The Volokh Conspiracy Idem
    Sorry to see scare-quotes, epiphany is a pretty emphatic word itself, alone. Ipse solus
    Last edited by Nightmare; 04-22-2015 at 04:58 PM.
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    it's owl about the douwgs

    Dog hunters aside...the supreme court takes another bone from the douwgs and this time...the cops.

    Washington, D.C. Ė The U.S. Supreme Court ruled on Tuesday that police are not allowed to extend a citizenís detention, during a normal traffic stop, while officers probe for evidence of crimes unrelated to the offense that prompted the initial stop.

    In the case before the court,*Rodriguez v. U.S., Dennys Rodriguez was given a warning for driving on the shoulder of the highway then forced to wait for almost 10 minutes as police awaited the arrival of a drug-sniffing dog.

    After arriving at the scene, the dog alerted, and a subsequent search of the vehicle found methamphetamine.

    The issue before the court was whether it was reasonable to extend Rodriguezís detention on the side of the road for longer than needed to deal with the initial offense, absent reasonable suspicion on the part of the officer.

    The court voted 6-3 in favor of Rodriguez, with the majority holding that the stop went beyond what was reasonable under the law and setting precedent for the entire country.

    Prior to the decision, the U.S. Eight Circuit Court of Appeals, following precedent, held that*ďextension of the stopÖ for the dog sniff was only a de minimus intrusion on Rodriguezís Fourth Amendment rights and was, therefore, permissible.Ē

    Penning the majority opinion, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg, joined by*Chief Justice John Roberts, Justices Antonin Scalia, Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor, and Elena Kagan, rebuked that contention, holding that detention of a person for any longer than it takes to deal with initial offense, even if only a few minutes, was improper.

    ďA traffic stop becomes unlawful if prolonged beyond the time in fact needed to complete all traffic-based inquiries,Ē Ginsburg said.

    Police are typically allowed to inspect a driverís license, ask for registration and proof of insurance and check for any outstanding warrants as all of those actions are geared towards ensuring that vehicles are safely operated, according to Ginsburg.


    Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/bre...pI6b06ICTyd.99

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    As they say, all politics is local ... and so is policing except for the feds, but the feds aren't pulling you over for running a red light unless you are the target of a RICO or DEA rap. I find our local, cities/county police to generally do a good and honorable job. They are part of the community and generally behave that way.

    I had a local cop and his wife in the office for a business transaction at the beginning of the week. I was talking to them and their realtor briefly and, long story short, the realtor said something about carrying for safety, I said I have been carrying for nearly a decade and am working on organizing a discounted CC class for my employees, some other women who work next door and a few other women I know. The cop said something like good for you, I wish more employers cared enough to do that, following which, the realtor identified him as a local city cop. Now we didn't get into OC at all and that was it for the conversation besides my saying that I think the local/county cops do a good job and seem to respect 2A to which he agreed and said he is proud. I did not mention that I have found the state police who patrol locally to generally be total *** wipes.

    This is like a lot of other things, the more urban, crowded, or dirt-bag the area, the less the cops feel part of the community they are patrolling, the more you look like one of said dirt bags (profiling legality is irrelevant - everyone, and I mean everyone with a decent life expectancy, profiles at least subconsciously which is why we choose not to go into certain establishments or cross the street when walking at night if we see certain people coming towards us on the sidewalk) the more likely you are to get a hassle. But unfortunately, it only takes one bad encounter for things to suddenly be very bad in all sorts of ways.

    But constitutional protections are not there to protect us from the freedom minded, honorable gov't agents be they cops, prosecutors or regulators. They are there because power tends to corrupt and corrupt people are often attracted to careers that give them power. I'm glad to see the courts providing more restraints on our public servants in this area. lMO the pendulum has swung too far in both policing the intending law abiding citizen who has committed a non-habitual infraction and in pampering the truly violent and dangerous among us. On state/local policing the pendulum seems to be swinging back towards a balance. Unfortunately, federally the lawlessness shows no signs of even slightly abating for at least the next 2 years.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  23. #23
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    This is pretty good news. Black vs. US + Rodriguez vs. US = Give me my ticket and buzz off, QUICK. Stop asking me questions, and don't even think about touching my property.
    Last edited by The Truth; 04-22-2015 at 08:10 PM. Reason: PC
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Sorry to see scare-quotes, epiphany is a pretty emphatic word itself, alone. Ipse solus
    I wouldn't call that usage "scare-quotes". More like "sarcasm-quotes", to point out the irony that someone who has been ruling on the law his entire adult life, may have just become personally subjected to it for the very first time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    it seems to be an attempt to label any thread "cop bashing" if it contains information of any cop doing something wrong.
    Nope. It is cop bashing when it moves from discussing the specifics of the case at hand to allegations or speculation that cops generally are misbehaving or will misbehave, or will willfully disregard court rulings.

    It seems 6 justices got this one right. Rather than bemoan / bash how cops are going to willfully violate this, why not some productive discussion about how this ruling benefits the lawful OCer, how OCer activists might most effectively go about educating either his local PD or citizens on the new limits for traffic stops, and so on.

    We've got some guys on here who have been very successful in correcting bad policies and getting local authorities to better respect RKBA. Some shared experiences would be beneficial.

    We've also got some folks are who are pretty good at reading and comprehending these decisions. There might be something useful to be gained beyond the summary, in the bowels of the decision itself, or even in the dissenting opinions.

    But some folks feel this need to pile cops generally every chance they get. I just don't see where that is really beneficial.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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