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Thread: Yet another 65.870 violation. (and a few others)

  1. #1
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Yet another 65.870 violation. (and a few others)

    I had the opportunity to speak with some Winchester Municipal Utilities employees today, and of course my gun came into conversation. I learned that WMU has posted some of those lovely "no guns allowed" signs on some of their buildings, as well as prohibit employees from carrying while on duty, in company trucks or to even have firearms in their personal vehicles while on WMU property (still not sure if this is a written policy or a word of mouth policy, but the signs are physical and do exist).

    I know that a handful of us seem to be constantly fighting these battles, and in the sprit of not being selfish, if anyone that wishes to do this kind of work wants to take this on for the experience, I'm willing to help you out if you would like to take the reins. If not, I have no problem doing it myself. But as I said, this should be a slam dunk and a great opportunity to get your feet wet. In the meantime I've already printed out all applicable laws to pass on and have gotten the contact persons info.

    If I have no takers in the next day or two I'll proceed on and keep everyone updated.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    SP, I sure hope you don't get trampled in the stampede of Ky. gun owners volunteering to help out.
    It was worth a shot. We learn by doing.......just ain't much doing going on in this like minded group of folks. It's all good though...just sit back and wait for someone else to come by to do the work for you.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Just as a heads up, I have a relative who lives in Winchester and is a pol within the city working and taking care of this. He will give me an update at the beginning of the week and I will forward to y'all. Should be an easy and quick fix

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Great news, hotrod. Thanks for stepping up to the plate. There are too many of us that are of the mindset, "I don't work for Winchester Municipal Utilities, why should I care?", but then when it happens in a place that does effect them, they want everybody to come to the rescue. They ask, "how could this happen?" It happens because we let these things get a foothold and they spread, like weeds. Once public officials understand we are serious about this and know that they will be challenged on every one of these things, no matter how small and how far we have to come, it will stop.
    +1
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Update: My relative spoke with a council member in Winchester who will be explaining the law to the WMU and advising on the removal of the signs. There is no ordinance that prohibits concealed carry as well. He told them to look at KRS 65.870. He also explained about vehicles on the property and employees allowed to carry in public vehicles. I will give them a few days to get this taken care of. I'll keep y'all updated
    Last edited by hotrod; 04-25-2015 at 12:07 PM.
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  6. #6
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    Update: My relative spoke with a council member in Winchester who will be explaining the law to the WMU and advising on the removal of the signs. There is no ordinance that prohibits concealed carry as well. He told them to look at KRS 65.870. He also explained about vehicles on the property and employees allowed to carry in public vehicles. I will give them a few days to get this taken care of. I'll keep y'all updated
    Great news. Thanks for your help. I have sent a letter to the general manager as well as copies of the laws that are being violated. I'm not a big fan of doing this by mail, but most of my time is now spent watching my 8 month old daughter, so the days of doing this type of work in face to face meetings is put on hold for now. But I guess if it gets the job done then it really doesn't matter. I'll keep everyone updated if I hear anything.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I had the opportunity to speak with some Winchester Municipal Utilities employees today, and of course my gun came into conversation. I learned that WMU has posted some of those lovely "no guns allowed" signs on some of their buildings, as well as prohibit employees from carrying while on duty, in company trucks or to even have firearms in their personal vehicles while on WMU property (still not sure if this is a written policy or a word of mouth policy, but the signs are physical and do exist).

    I know that a handful of us seem to be constantly fighting these battles, and in the sprit of not being selfish, if anyone that wishes to do this kind of work wants to take this on for the experience, I'm willing to help you out if you would like to take the reins. If not, I have no problem doing it myself. But as I said, this should be a slam dunk and a great opportunity to get your feet wet. In the meantime I've already printed out all applicable laws to pass on and have gotten the contact persons info.

    If I have no takers in the next day or two I'll proceed on and keep everyone updated.
    Great job! I am too far from Winchester (located in Louisville) to be of any help but am quite interested in "getting my feet wet" so if you hear of anything closer to Jefferson county I'll do my best to be involved.

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    Good job Hotrod and relative.

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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    I found where KC3 had an agreement with Winchester. Going to find out what the agreement was and see if it covered WMU. Working on this problem
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  10. #10
    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    The agreement was that they would obey the law and KC3 wouldn't sue them.
    Gutshot, would you please give me a call. It appears your number magically left my phone. Wish to talk to you about the problem in Winchester. Seems the powers that be have or will request the AG to issue an opinion. They were told one has already been given. I would appreciate a call. Thanks
    Speed is fine
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  11. #11
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Gentlemen, sorry for being gone for a week or so, but I've been extremely busy with some home improvement projects. Nonetheless, I know that you didn't come here to read about my drywall work, priming, painting, etc. I wish I had a good update to give, but I do not. Work is still being done by a few of us from this forum, but as I suspected from the word go, WMU is going to try to fight this to the end. But at this point in time that's all I have to share.

    On a side note, last week I found myself in a city park in Winchester and I noticed the "rules sign" that was posted. As I was reading all the rules I noticed that rule number 11 had a piece of white tape over it. I assume that rule number 11 was the once prohibition of firearms in the park. As most of you will recall, KC3 sued a couple of years ago over this illegal rule/ordinance. I just wanted to give that update for the fun of it.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I have heard that Winchester Municipal Utilities claims to be a private company. After a little research, I feel confidant in saying that Winchester Municipal Utilities is a public facility and will be covered by KRS 65.870. If you go to their website at https://www.wmutilities.com/ and click on "SEWER" you will see a link to "EPA CONSENT DECREE". It seems that WMU was sued by the Federal EPA and in 2007 they entered into an agreement on coming into compliance with the federal law. That agreement is called a "Consent Decree". If you click that link, a copy of the document will open and here is a excerpt from Page 2, paragraph (3): "WMU is a public service utility organized and established by the City pursuant to KRS Chapter 58." KRS Chapter 58 is all about creating public agencies and funding public agencies. On WMU's home page is a link to Winchester City Ordinance, Chapter 14. Chapter 14 concerns the establishment of WMU as a city utility. WMU is a creation of the city of Winchester and the Commonwealth of Ky. It is not a private company.

    On Thursday May 21, there will be a public meeting of the board of commissioners for WMU. The meeting is open to the public, because it has to be public, because WMU is a public agency and they must obey the "Open Meetings Act". The meeting will be held at WMU's offices at 150 North Main St. in Winchester at 5:30 PM. I intend to be there and invite anyone else who is interested in these things to also attend.
    You are to be complimented on your slicing and dicing expertise/technique. Good luck and let us know how it goes at WMU.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  13. #13
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Yet another 65.870 violation. (and a few others)

    I cant attend (from Dallas) but wonder if you could have a friend video your time at the podium and the Commissioners response...
    Good luck - hard to argue w a consent decree - would the the Commissioners could go on record and clear up the 'staff misunderstanding' of who owns the Utility.[emoji83]

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    Last edited by HPmatt; 05-14-2015 at 08:29 AM.
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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I have heard that Winchester Municipal Utilities claims to be a private company. After a little research, I feel confidant in saying that Winchester Municipal Utilities is a public facility and will be covered by KRS 65.870. If you go to their website at https://www.wmutilities.com/ and click on "SEWER" you will see a link to "EPA CONSENT DECREE". It seems that WMU was sued by the Federal EPA and in 2007 they entered into an agreement on coming into compliance with the federal law. That agreement is called a "Consent Decree". If you click that link, a copy of the document will open and here is a excerpt from Page 2, paragraph (3): "WMU is a public service utility organized and established by the City pursuant to KRS Chapter 58." KRS Chapter 58 is all about creating public agencies and funding public agencies. On WMU's home page is a link to Winchester City Ordinance, Chapter 14. Chapter 14 concerns the establishment of WMU as a city utility. WMU is a creation of the city of Winchester and the Commonwealth of Ky. It is not a private company.

    On Thursday May 21, there will be a public meeting of the board of commissioners for WMU. The meeting is open to the public, because it has to be public, because WMU is a public agency and they must obey the "Open Meetings Act". The meeting will be held at WMU's offices at 150 North Main St. in Winchester at 5:30 PM. I intend to be there and invite anyone else who is interested in these things to also attend.
    Excellent research skills. I learn so much from you. I'll have to check on the 21th to see if I can make it. I would love to make that meeting...with Glock 19 on hip of course.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Well, well, well, there is big news about this issue. Hotrod just informed me that his relative in Winchester reports that the gun buster signs at WMU have come down. I don't know when they came down or what caused them to come down, but they are down. That is all that matters. I sent an email to the Mayor of Winchester this morning, but I doubt that was the reason. I just reminded him of the lawsuit with KC3 two years ago and the problem with the fire dept last year. The Mayor and one city commissioner have seats on the WMU board. They are non voting positions, but I assume he has some influence with the voting members. Anyway, I'm calling this a victory and will not be going to the board meeting next week, unless some new information surfaces. There had been three of us working on this from three different angles, I suspect it was a combination of all of it that caused them to relent. If anyone has any additional information, now or later, let us know. Of course, it could be that they have been reading everything posted here. We all owe a "thank you" to self presrvation and hotrod, they did the work on this.
    Congratulations in order. Multiple points of fire IS effective.

    You're building a team - see much potential there.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  16. #16
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Well, well, well, there is big news about this issue. Hotrod just informed me that his relative in Winchester reports that the gun buster signs at WMU have come down. I don't know when they came down or what caused them to come down, but they are down. That is all that matters. I sent an email to the Mayor of Winchester this morning, but I doubt that was the reason. I just reminded him of the lawsuit with KC3 two years ago and the problem with the fire dept last year. The Mayor and one city commissioner have seats on the WMU board. They are non voting positions, but I assume he has some influence with the voting members. Anyway, I'm calling this a victory and will not be going to the board meeting next week, unless some new information surfaces. There had been three of us working on this from three different angles, I suspect it was a combination of all of it that caused them to relent. If anyone has any additional information, now or later, let us know. Of course, it could be that they have been reading everything posted here. We all owe a "thank you" to self presrvation and hotrod, they did the work on this.
    Fantastic news! I really thought that this one was going to get ugly. Thanks to hotrod and yourself for your help. I'm thinking of sending an open records request to them to inquire if they have any policies that prohibit employees from lawfully carrying while on the clock, any policy on employees carrying in company vehicles, or any policy on employees storing firearms in their private vehicles while on company property. The answer will more than likely be a no since I suspect that any such rule(s) where never on paper, but rather verbal rules, but this will still put them on notice that we are paying attention.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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