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Thread: Can the mayor and cops force event attendees to remain and not leave an event?

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Can the mayor and cops force event attendees to remain and not leave an event?

    I'm an Orioles Fan; have been since my days at the Naval Academy and seeing them live and getting to love baseball at the same time. I'm too busy to see every game during the season, but I follow them. We aren't doing as well this year as I'd hoped, but I was very pleased to see an extra-inning win, even with our guest getting a last inning run, too.

    So then while the box score was up on my screen, I noticed a headline, and had to check it out:

    http://deadspin.com/orioles-fans-stu...-th-1700219246

    Headline: "Orioles Fans Stuck In Stadium After Mayor & Cops Ask Them Not To Leave"

    My first thought was wondering if any would have the audacity to exercise personal freedom and responsibility to ignore the potential riots and go home anyway. So, I clicked on the article to read some comments like: "Gates at Camden Yards just reopened for fans to exit."

    So, um, they were "asked" not to leave, and then the gates were shut, locking them inside the stadium?

    Any laws broken here?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Probably not.

    Lots of leeway in keeping areas (and especially roadways) clear for emergency vehicles/emergency operations.

    But let me see if I'm understanding this correctly - somewhere near Camden Yards there were assembled crowds of unhappy people expressing their displeasure. (TV Snooze showed pictures of several folks smashing windshields of several cars. Was not really watching but presume there might have been other expressions of displeasure happening.)

    "Don't go stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things [that will win you stupid prizes]."

    And you are looking for folks who would insist in exiting Camden Yards into that environment? Why? (Discretion, valor, all that stuff.)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Glad MD has gun control. Keeps the Amish and Quakers from attacking baseball fans on their way home after the game.[emoji1]


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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I would guess the officials argue that they were not detaining any individual but rather restricting movement of the crowd into a potentially dangerous area.

    Personally, I will just continue to avoid the state and its neighbors.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    ...And you are looking for folks who would insist in exiting Camden Yards into that environment? Why? ...
    No. I asked if they had the right/freedom to do so.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    No. I asked if they had the right/freedom to do so.
    And again I respond by saying that there are possibilities that at that time in that place they may not have either.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Rhetorical question? It is the PDROMD1.


    1People's Democratic Republic of Maryland.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Rhetorical question? It is the PDROMD1.


    1People's Democratic Republic of Maryland.
    Not rhetorical at all, IMHO. There is a great need to know when, where, how, under what conditions, and for how long the .gov can restrict/infringe on your legal rights.

    The same legal construct could have been applied in the most golden of OC states.

    The only flaw I can see in the whole thing is that given what we know did happen and what the BPD did not do, someone who tried to leave would have a good time presenting a case of why they could not be guilty of obstructing justice/impeding police in the performance of their duty. (They'd lose, but they'd have fun while presenting their case.)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  9. #9
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    This thread has nothing to do with OC of handguns...Just sayin'...

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    This thread has nothing to do with OC of handguns...Just sayin'...
    You moderate the Maryland forum? This website is a haven of legal experts, and it is quite common that legal topics regarding personal freedoms are given some latitude. Would you prefer it in the social lounge, even though it is a Maryland-specific issue and question?

    Maybe I'm wrong. Hit the triangle and report the post. Because that would be your obligation if this thread should not exist; else all you did was add a useless post to it with a 4-hour bump.
    Last edited by MAC702; 04-27-2015 at 03:14 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    This thread has nothing to do with OC of handguns...Just sayin'...
    Neither does Maryland. Or New Jersey. Or DC. (Or Texas for the moment.)

    But they are all in various degrees of working to get there. Should we lock them out until they actually have OC?

    Apparently "The Moderator" (scare quotes, dontchaknow) is not too concerned.

    stay safe.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-27-2015 at 06:48 PM. Reason: Rule #19
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  12. #12
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    Lets face it, preventing the attendees from leaving seized them without individualized suspicion and violated their 4A rights. False imprisonment.

    Too bad for the police if they didn't think about the problem beforehand and ask the game to be postponed. Which, now that I think about it, maybe they did think about it before the game and decided it would be a lower political risk to detain the attendees after the game, than cancel or postpone the game.

    The best the cops can legitimately do is inform the attendees of the dangers and so forth, advise them to stay, ask their cooperation. And, then get the hell out of the way of those who still wish to leave.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-27-2015 at 06:39 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Ten Minutes Makes Me A Prophet

    News radio just announced that tonight's game is being postponed.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    This thread has nothing to do with OC of handguns...Just sayin'...
    Latitude granted - would be likely be off topic in states which have better pro self defense laws.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    News radio just announced that MD governor has declared a state of emergency and activated the MD Nat'l Guard.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    News radio just announced that MD governor has declared a state of emergency and activated the MD Nat'l Guard.
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/hundreds-people-clash-police-baltimore-mall/story?id=30622868
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
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    Things are moving fast.

    News radio just carried a live address from the city government declaring a 10pm curfew.

    Also speaking was a senior cop making out like the whole city was one large riot zone, and saying the police would not tolerate it. And, declaring police priorities are officer safety and public safety (his words, in that order).
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    But what about the Mayor's promise to “give those who wished to destroy space to do that.”
    Apparently, she's changed her mind. At last report, she now regards them as thugs.

    Imagine that! A woman who rules others without their consent calling somebody else a thug.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  19. #19
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    Update: Live news radio.

    Gov of MD saying he activated the MD Nat'l Guard. Also, declares the people of Baltimore deserve safety. (But, apparently not against having your neck broken while in police custody.)

    Speaking now is a senior cop of MD state police. Promises assistance, and makes reference to up to 5000 law-enforcement from the mid-Atlantic region. That was not a typo--he said 5K.

    Now, a spokesman from the MD Natl Guard is speaking, mentioning 5K troops.

    Jeezus!! I don't think George Washington took 5K troops with him to put down the whiskey rebellion in western PA! What do these people think is going on? An armed rebellion? Do the math. Between Guard, regional cops, state police, and city cops that has got to be at least one infantry division worth of troops being threatened to descend on the city.

    They're only one step from declaring martial law.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-27-2015 at 08:58 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Now I would like to see Army implement the Jade 15 training in Baltimore - THAT would be interesting.


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  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    HHHmmmmm... Interesting. I do not know the lay of the land in and around Baltimore to understand the flow of the riots like I did in Ferguson. However, it appears that the initial "protests" and its signage was once again funded by the usual suspects as one might say. There are certainly movements that are empowered by fostering such unrest and lawlessness. And there are certainly others empowered by putting down such "protests".
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    I would call this situation a public service. A large version of a cop pulling over a white lady driving a Volvo at 3AM in the projects. "Are you lost? Just follow me, ma'am and I will take you to the freeway...". The officer had no right or reason to interfere with her travels. Did it because it was right, or saved him paperwork later, or she reminded him of his mother, whatever.
    Police can restrict access in an emergency situation.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Update: Live news radio.

    Gov of MD saying he activated the MD Nat'l Guard. Also, declares the people of Baltimore deserve safety. (But, apparently not against having your neck broken while in police custody.)

    Speaking now is a senior cop of MD state police. Promises assistance, and makes reference to up to 5000 law-enforcement from the mid-Atlantic region. That was not a typo--he said 5K.

    Now, a spokesman from the MD Natl Guard is speaking, mentioning 5K troops.

    Jeezus!! I don't think George Washington took 5K troops with him to put down the whiskey rebellion in western PA! What do these people think is going on? An armed rebellion? Do the math. Between Guard, regional cops, state police, and city cops that has got to be at least one infantry division worth of troops being threatened to descend on the city.

    They're only one step from declaring martial law.
    Only half a division. And how many of them are trained in restoring order in areas of urban discord? (As a veteran of the late1960s urban discord scene allow me to share an observation: it's not how many troops you have but where and how you deploy them. Monsieur L'Enfant's street plan for DC might have been good for unfocused mobs running down the street yeling "Off with their heads!" but sucked for dealing with folks burning and pillaging. (I do wish they'd get that right: Pillage, then burn.)

    Far better they get some more moms involved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr8rdYUOqgw

    Does anybody else get the shudders thinking about bringing in cops from all over? Shades of Katrina/NOLA.

    Toilet paper, Pringles, and Oreos (in that order)? Back in the day they looted liquor stores to get the makings of Molitov cocktails.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  24. #24
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    For context.
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I'm an Orioles Fan; ...

    Any laws broken here?
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Not rhetorical at all, IMHO. There is a great need to know when, where, how, under what conditions, and for how long the .gov can restrict/infringe on your legal rights.

    The same legal construct could have been applied in the most golden of OC states.

    The only flaw I can see in the whole thing is that given what we know did happen and what the BPD did not do, someone who tried to leave would have a good time presenting a case of why they could not be guilty of obstructing justice/impeding police in the performance of their duty. (They'd lose, but they'd have fun while presenting their case.)

    stay safe.
    Yes, it was a rhetorical question. BPD is not anywhere near a reputable LE institution. All one need to do is to do a wee bit of research on BPD.
    The Brutality of Police Culture in Baltimore

    Years of abuses are every bit as egregious as what the Department of Justice documented in Ferguson, Missouri, and as deserving of a national response.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...timore/391158/
    Of course, you are under no obligation to conduct any research on BPD. Does any of BPD's history have any relevancy, whatsoever, re the condcut of BPD on any given work day? I don't know...
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  25. #25
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hovercat View Post
    I would call this situation a public service. A large version of a cop pulling over a white lady driving a Volvo at 3AM in the projects. "Are you lost? Just follow me, ma'am and I will take you to the freeway...". The officer had no right or reason to interfere with her travels. Did it because it was right, or saved him paperwork later, or she reminded him of his mother, whatever.
    Police can restrict access in an emergency situation.
    Lol illegally detained for driving white in a black neighborhood? That's a new one.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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