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Thread: Baltimore cops subjected to non-consensual interactions. "Challenged to fight!"

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    Baltimore cops subjected to non-consensual interactions. "Challenged to fight!"

    Baltimore Sergeant Warns Superiors: “It Is About To Get Ugly”

    A Baltimore police sergeant informed his Eastern District superiors Friday afternoon that officers “are now being challenged on the street.” The sergeant sent the letter following the announcement that State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosby was indicting six officers on felony charges associated with the death of Freddie Gray, the 25-year-old who suffered a fatal spinal injury while in Baltimore police custody on April 12.

    The letter, provided to BuzzFeed News from an anonymous source, warned of heightening tensions between police and residents on a day when many locals have taken to the streets to celebrate.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/albertsamaha...gly#.ukE63q017

    LOL What goes around, comes around. The Foo Bird is landing, coming home to roost. MOLON LABE, it's more than merely arms.
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Not the brightest tool in the drawer to warn his superiors it's (he's) about to 'get ugly'...

    Telling them something they don't know? Warning that his officers can't be professionals and walk away?

    In a face-to-face, the cop can always walk away...or back away.

    Basically he's admitting his officers may not have the tact and patience he has.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I thought it was already ugly on the streets? There have been claims that officers will be reluctant to enforce laws, NYPD made that same claim, and crime did not skyrocket. The courts have already gave a lot of leeway for officers because the streets are ugly(officer safety). Some officers abused that leeway, and now the chickens have come home to roost.

    Mosby is an inspiration, she may not get convictions, but she stood up proudly and did something. And as she said(paraphrased), there is no place on the PD for corrupt officers. About damn time, maybe across the country the profession will actually go back to being a profession. Maybe the good officers will see it is time to speak up across the country.
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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    From what I have seen/heard, and admittedly after a very busy week it has not been much more than talk radio/news 20 minutes at a time driving, I am not by any means convinced as to the corruption of these particular officers.

    But all this does once again bring up the "broken window" policing v other perspectives on the matter. Personally I am inclined towards making minor crimes truly minor and major crimes truly major and get rid of a majority of the in between stuff. I think the entire problem with cops goes back to criminalizing every darn thing which gets cops into the "well I'll be able to find something to charge because I don't like the color of your shirt" mindset. If there is no serious crime committed and the infractions that could be cites aren't anything more than a $100 citation there is less incentive for some of this. It also paves the way for a return to peace officers instead of law enforcement. When enforcement is more important than the peace we have issues.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post

    LOL What goes around, comes around. The Foo Bird is landing, coming home to roost. MOLON LABE, it's more than merely arms.
    So you are saying the appropriate response to the alleged (we may all know it exists but it has not yet been "proven" to exist) illegal and violent behavior of the cops is to engage in illegal and violent behavior. Am I getting that rght?

    stay safe.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Not the brightest tool in the drawer to warn his superiors it's (he's) about to 'get ugly'...

    Telling them something they don't know? Warning that his officers can't be professionals and walk away?

    In a face-to-face, the cop can always walk away...or back away.

    Basically he's admitting his officers may not have the tact and patience he has.
    Is that really how you see his "warning"? On what do you base that conclusion?

    stay safe.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I thought it was already ugly on the streets? There have been claims that officers will be reluctant to enforce laws, NYPD made that same claim, and crime did not skyrocket. The courts have already gave a lot of leeway for officers because the streets are ugly(officer safety). Some officers abused that leeway, and now the chickens have come home to roost.

    Mosby is an inspiration, she may not get convictions, but she stood up proudly and did something. And as she said(paraphrased), there is no place on the PD for corrupt officers. About damn time, maybe across the country the profession will actually go back to being a profession. Maybe the good officers will see it is time to speak up across the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    From what I have seen/heard, and admittedly after a very busy week it has not been much more than talk radio/news 20 minutes at a time driving, I am not by any means convinced as to the corruption of these particular officers.

    But all this does once again bring up the "broken window" policing v other perspectives on the matter. Personally I am inclined towards making minor crimes truly minor and major crimes truly major and get rid of a majority of the in between stuff. I think the entire problem with cops goes back to criminalizing every darn thing which gets cops into the "well I'll be able to find something to charge because I don't like the color of your shirt" mindset. If there is no serious crime committed and the infractions that could be cites aren't anything more than a $100 citation there is less incentive for some of this. It also paves the way for a return to peace officers instead of law enforcement. When enforcement is more important than the peace we have issues.
    Some voices of reason coming from the wilderness.

    While I'm not in any way expecting "The Thin Blue Line" to suddenly start turning in all thje bad cops this - and the other recent police officers arrested - may point the way for creating personal accountability as opposed to settlement agreements funded with taxpayer money that say "We didn't do it and promise never to do it again". Yes, it's a drastic step, but one that probably ought to have been taken decades ago.

    Cops have a terribly difficult job. Sadly the courts have covered for them when the cops step outside what we consider the boundaries of appropriate and/or legal behavior. Somewhere along the line we lost sight of "better that ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be wrongly convicted".

    I'm going to go way out on the proverbial limb and say tat when good policing began to work and the crime rates dropped there was a normal public pursestrings response of asking why we still needed so many cops, which created job insecurity. Then The War on Some Things started and suddenly there were all sorts of crimes being committed and not enough cops to even keep a lid on things let alone reduce the rate of crime, so the taxpayers were told they could only be made safe if there was a massive infusion of street cops. That took the minor players out of the picture but made the major players determined to prevail - and they saw the way to do that was to start an arms race. Now we have LEOs and LEAs that believe that "patrol" means a tactical excursion to find and close with "the enemy". The way to show that works is by body counts - and since we refuse to learn from our history that has become the metric to jjustify the number of cops and the equipment they have.

    Maybe later we can discuss how to deal with the helpless/hopeless issues that feed into the equation.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Some voices of reason coming from the wilderness.

    While I'm not in any way expecting "The Thin Blue Line" to suddenly start turning in all thje bad cops this - and the other recent police officers arrested - may point the way for creating personal accountability as opposed to settlement agreements funded with taxpayer money that say "We didn't do it and promise never to do it again". Yes, it's a drastic step, but one that probably ought to have been taken decades ago.

    Cops have a terribly difficult job. Sadly the courts have covered for them when the cops step outside what we consider the boundaries of appropriate and/or legal behavior. Somewhere along the line we lost sight of "better that ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be wrongly convicted".

    I'm going to go way out on the proverbial limb and say tat when good policing began to work and the crime rates dropped there was a normal public pursestrings response of asking why we still needed so many cops, which created job insecurity. Then The War on Some Things started and suddenly there were all sorts of crimes being committed and not enough cops to even keep a lid on things let alone reduce the rate of crime, so the taxpayers were told they could only be made safe if there was a massive infusion of street cops. That took the minor players out of the picture but made the major players determined to prevail - and they saw the way to do that was to start an arms race. Now we have LEOs and LEAs that believe that "patrol" means a tactical excursion to find and close with "the enemy". The way to show that works is by body counts - and since we refuse to learn from our history that has become the metric to jjustify the number of cops and the equipment they have.

    Maybe later we can discuss how to deal with the helpless/hopeless issues that feed into the equation.

    stay safe.
    +1
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    ...Mosby is an inspiration, she may not get convictions, but she stood up proudly and did something...
    An inspiration?? She "did something"?? For whom? It sure as h@ll wasn't for society. She stated repeatedly that she is "seeking justice for Freddie Gray" (or similar statements), rather than simply seeking JUSTICE FOR ALL.

    She's a political hack, who has used her position to make political moves - the law be damned.

    The officers won't be convicted of the overcharges levied against them - bank on it. I'm patiently awaiting more information rather than preparing the hanging tree.

    Those who celebrate when hacks like Mosby do their thing will be less than thrilled if they're ever in the sights of similarly empowered public "servants" for acts that have incited the mob.

    What goes around comes around.
    Last edited by BB62; 05-02-2015 at 05:16 PM.

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    So, please correct me if I am wrong but the 6 officers are being criminally charged for violating department policies? How can one be charged by the State much less convicted of violating an employment policy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    So, please correct me if I am wrong but the 6 officers are being criminally charged for violating department policies? How can one be charged by the State much less convicted of violating an employment policy?
    There seems to be some fog.

    I remain suspicious of intentions if no other reason than the prosecutor relied on those same cops to bring cases and prosecuted those cases in court, relying on their testimony.

    At this point, we still don't have enough information to know for sure whether the prosecutor's accusation is just a ploy to mollify the rightfully angry citizens of Baltimore.

    It wouldn't be the first time a prosecutor solemnly declared sending a case to a grand jury, knowing the grand jury would likely not indict, especially if the prosecutor presenting to the grand jury "pulled his punches."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    There seems to be some fog.

    I remain suspicious of intentions if no other reason than the prosecutor relied on those same cops to bring cases and prosecuted those cases in court, relying on their testimony.

    At this point, we still don't have enough information to know for sure whether the prosecutor's accusation is just a ploy to mollify the rightfully angry citizens of Baltimore.

    It wouldn't be the first time a prosecutor solemnly declared sending a case to a grand jury, knowing the grand jury would likely not indict, especially if the prosecutor presenting to the grand jury "pulled his punches."
    Yeah, the only thing I can figure is that at least part of the charge is that the violation of department policy to seat belt suspects in the van was the proximate cause of the head injury from the bolt which related to the proximate cause of death... or something. I remain skeptical of all sides in this matter and am withholding any judgment besides skepticism until I see good reason to think otherwise.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    An inspiration?? She "did something"?? For whom? It sure as h@ll wasn't for society. She stated repeatedly that she is "seeking justice for Freddie Gray" (or similar statements), rather than simply seeking JUSTICE FOR ALL.

    She's a political hack, who has used her position to make political moves - the law be damned.

    The officers won't be convicted of the overcharges levied against them - bank on it. I'm patiently awaiting more information rather than preparing the hanging tree.

    Those who celebrate when hacks like Mosby do their thing will be less than thrilled if they're ever in the sights of similarly empowered public "servants" for acts that have incited the mob.

    What goes around comes around.
    Been using that magic 8 ball again, I thought they went out of use in the 70's. What I will bank on is some people just can't do anything other than biotch, no matter how the authorities react. What the hell do you want her to do, pin medals on these arseholes? Honestly what do you want? Tell us your miracle solution?
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Cops have a terribly difficult job!???
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    Yeah, the only thing I can figure is that at least part of the charge is that the violation of department policy to seat belt suspects in the van was the proximate cause of the head injury from the bolt which related to the proximate cause of death... or something. I remain skeptical of all sides in this matter and am withholding any judgment besides skepticism until I see good reason to think otherwise.
    He didn't break his neck JUST from the seat belt not being fastened, considerable force had to be applied to his spine, like in a car accident. Since the van had no damages, the death was from eratic driving. His only defense is claiming that Gray's injuries occurred before being loaded in the van. But the coroner already claimed the injuries were in the van, supposedly a miracle bolt that reached out and broke his neck.

    I think Mosby got it right, with what she has. He was arrested unlawfully, as a result he was held against his will for no crimes, which resulted in his death. Plus she has the officers outright lying about the knife, and the number of stops. Who knows what else they lied about. I have little doubt they will get convicted on the false imprisonment, that is a no brainier. Misconduct, without a doubt. Involuntary manslaughter, absolutely. The only possible overcharge is the murder charge, and it appears that his violating Gray's rights WITH FORCE, and intentionally giving him a rough ride meet that burden.

    There are never any guarantees of convictions, but the tantrum throwing of a prosecutor doing her job is sickening. The old saying is a prosecutor could get a ham sandwich indicted has merit, the prosecutor can also get the ham sandwich off. I see no indication that Mosby will present a case defending the officers actions.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 05-02-2015 at 08:34 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Cops have a terribly difficult job!???
    Well they do, but so do many other professions in this country.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Well they do, but so do many other professions in this country.
    +1

    And when compared to so many other jobs their job is easier and less dangerous. Most people don't have a brotherhood and state that worships them and protects them when they fluck up.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    He didn't break his neck JUST from the seat belt not being fastened, considerable force had to be applied to his spine, like in a car accident. Since the van had no damages, the death was from eratic driving. His only defense is claiming that Gray's injuries occurred before being loaded in the van. But the coroner already claimed the injuries were in the van, supposedly a miracle bolt that reached out and broke his neck.

    I think Mosby got it right, with what she has. He was arrested unlawfully, as a result he was held against his will for no crimes, which resulted in his death. Plus she has the officers outright lying about the knife, and the number of stops. Who knows what else they lied about. I have little doubt they will get convicted on the false imprisonment, that is a no brainier. Misconduct, without a doubt. Involuntary manslaughter, absolutely. The only possible overcharge is the murder charge, and it appears that his violating Gray's rights WITH FORCE, and intentionally giving him a rough ride meet that burden.

    There are never any guarantees of convictions, but the tantrum throwing of a prosecutor doing her job is sickening. The old saying is a prosecutor could get a ham sandwich indicted has merit, the prosecutor can also get the ham sandwich off. I see no indication that Mosby will present a case defending the officers actions.
    You are obviously more knowledgeable of the details than I and from your recitation it certainly gives more credence to Mosby's charging than anything I heard in the MSM. I will retain my skepticism, while certainly appreciating your taking the time to lay out your information and keeping all of it in mind for perspective when I hear future media reports.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Cops have a terribly difficult job!???
    How about we look at that in context:

    Cops have a terribly difficult job. Sadly the courts have covered for them when the cops step outside what we consider the boundaries of appropriate and/or legal behavior. Somewhere along the line we lost sight of "better that ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be wrongly convicted".
    But even out of context - I'd love to shadow you for 12 hours while you make decisions on the fly (often in split seconds) about everything from whether to write a citation, write a warning, or just tell the driver to get his taillight fixed to deciding if that person who has just lost their cool is holding a cellphone, a knife, or a gun behind their back. Do you remember this story http://www.westernjournalism.com/ant...eriffs-office/ ? Went from "The cops could always ...." to "there's hardly any time to decide what to do".

    And once more, for the record, I am by no means an apologist or supporter of cops. The ones that are out violating our rights upset me just a little less than the cops who know who is violating our rights but will not step up and name names.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    He didn't break his neck JUST from the seat belt not being fastened, considerable force had to be applied to his spine, like in a car accident. Since the van had no damages, the death was from eratic driving. His only defense is claiming that Gray's injuries occurred before being loaded in the van. But the coroner already claimed the injuries were in the van, supposedly a miracle bolt that reached out and broke his neck.

    I think Mosby got it right, with what she has. He was arrested unlawfully, as a result he was held against his will for no crimes, which resulted in his death. Plus she has the officers outright lying about the knife, and the number of stops. Who knows what else they lied about. I have little doubt they will get convicted on the false imprisonment, that is a no brainier. Misconduct, without a doubt. Involuntary manslaughter, absolutely. The only possible overcharge is the murder charge, and it appears that his violating Gray's rights WITH FORCE, and intentionally giving him a rough ride meet that burden.

    There are never any guarantees of convictions, but the tantrum throwing of a prosecutor doing her job is sickening. The old saying is a prosecutor could get a ham sandwich indicted has merit, the prosecutor can also get the ham sandwich off. I see no indication that Mosby will present a case defending the officers actions.
    I'm less sure. In the cell phone video, when he is forced/carried to the (van in question?) there is obviously something wrong with at least one of his legs. A witness can be heard protesting his leg is broken. Later reports tell of surgery for broken vertebra and crushed larynx--no mention of broken leg. But, its pretty obvious something is wrong with at least one of his legs in the cell phone video.

    I remain skeptical that the injuries happened in the van. Based on that floppy, twisty leg in the cell phone video, I'm thinking he was already seriously injured before he was stuffed in the first vehicle.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  21. #21
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I'm less sure. In the cell phone video, when he is forced/carried to the (van in question?) there is obviously something wrong with at least one of his legs. A witness can be heard protesting his leg is broken. Later reports tell of surgery for broken vertebra and crushed larynx--no mention of broken leg. But, its pretty obvious something is wrong with at least one of his legs in the cell phone video.

    I remain skeptical that the injuries happened in the van. Based on that floppy, twisty leg in the cell phone video, I'm thinking he was already seriously injured before he was stuffed in the first vehicle.
    I agree, I think the first injury happened during the unlawful detention, but Mosby pretty much is stuck with the coroner's report. The heavy charges on the driver is pretty strong incentive to turn on the other criminals. In fact the cops claim the arrest was without incident, yet he was too dangerous to seat belt in the van, plus he could barely move. Their whole story is crapola.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    How about we look at that in context:



    But even out of context - I'd love to shadow you for 12 hours while you make decisions on the fly (often in split seconds) about everything from whether to write a citation, write a warning, or just tell the driver to get his taillight fixed to deciding if that person who has just lost their cool is holding a cellphone, a knife, or a gun behind their back. Do you remember this story http://www.westernjournalism.com/ant...eriffs-office/ ? Went from "The cops could always ...." to "there's hardly any time to decide what to do".

    And once more, for the record, I am by no means an apologist or supporter of cops. The ones that are out violating our rights upset me just a little less than the cops who know who is violating our rights but will not step up and name names.

    stay safe.
    LOL...Your added rationalization sort of made this last post nothing.......but a big .....but.


    OOOO so hard to make in a split second whether to give a ticket or a warning or advice.......

    That piece was fluff meant to get citizens to offer apologia for cops killing innocent people. Lets get people to think every second of every part of their job are these "life and death scenarios" instead of the reality that they rarely deal with those scenarios and act mostly in an unconstitutional proactive policing manner, which done away with wouldn't put them in those scenarios to begin with. They work shorter, retire better, less physically demanding, die less, and have a gaggle of worshipers buying and offering up the propaganda how needed they are and how "dangerous" their job is. Its all balderdash.

    12 hrs a day....hahaha.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Agree. In truth a cop can make his job harder or easier, and where the real stress lies is with their management and to some extent peers. Quotas, unspoken roles, blue line, lying, accepting payola, going into danger alone because to do otherwise is to be labeled by their peers as a wussy.

    But in lists of dangerous professions, LE is somewhere near the bottom.

  24. #24
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    One cannot be excepted from one's peers. A stressor of peers is a stressor of the individual member of the peer group, else they are not to this extent peers.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    LOL...Your added rationalization sort of made this last post nothing.......but a big .....but.


    OOOO so hard to make in a split second whether to give a ticket or a warning or advice.......

    That piece was fluff meant to get citizens to offer apologia for cops killing innocent people. Lets get people to think every second of every part of their job are these "life and death scenarios" instead of the reality that they rarely deal with those scenarios and act mostly in an unconstitutional proactive policing manner, which done away with wouldn't put them in those scenarios to begin with. Lets get people to think every second of every part of their job are these "life and death scenarios" instead of the reality that they rarely deal with those scenarios and act mostly in an unconstitutional proactive policing manner, which done away with wouldn't put them in those scenarios to begin with. Its all balderdash.

    12 hrs a day....hahaha.
    Sweet fluffy bunny slippers! Am I actually going to argue over the internet?

    Nah.

    Just point out some of the illogic being tossed around:

    "Lets get people to think every second of every part of their job are these "life and death scenarios" instead of the reality that they rarely deal with those scenarios and act mostly in an unconstitutional proactive policing manner, which done away with wouldn't put them in those scenarios to begin with."

    Who said cops deal with life-or-death scenarios every second of every part of their job - except you?

    What the heck is "an unconstitutional proactive policing manner" and can there ever be a constitutional proactive policing manner?

    You said "mostly" - does that mean that all cops do that most of the time, or that most but not all cops do, or that some cops do more often than not? If not all, how many (I'll accept either sheer numbers or percentages if you provide a cite to back up your assertion.)

    Which scenarios would cops not be put in to begin with if they did not "act mostly in an unconstitutional proactive policing manner"?

    "12 hours a day" - http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/m...rticle_id=1435 https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...9222244AA3KyDf https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/237964.pdf

    Comments? Response?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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