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Can a melting pot society ever truly work?

stealthyeliminator

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Some have argued that the problem is "government". It isn't. The problem is what you've brought up in your OP: it is that people have different cultures and some of those cultures just are not compatible with each other. If we were all libertarians we'd have less conflict. But that is like saying if we were all conservative or all liberal we'd have less conflict. The real problem is how do diverse and incompatible cultures co-exist?

I don't think anyone has argued that government is the problem.

I like this local control concept we're talking about. Let's run with it. :D Let's say my neighbors property is under his control. He lives there, in his own little jurisdiction. Since he's under his jurisdiction, but not mine, he decides how much tax he has to pay to himself, and then what it's used for. Me over here, across the state border (my yard), I'm under another jurisdiction. Over here, I have a different tax rate, and those funds are appropriated differently, too. Yeah, I think this'll work out just fine. Neato.
 

marshaul

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How about gangs?

Most immigrant gangs are formed due to perverse incentives.

For instance, MS-13. It was started by a couple of Salvadoran immigrants who had been involved in the... troubles back home. In California at the time, the indigenous (mostly black) gangs intentionally preyed on hispanic immigrants, knowing that since many of them were illegal immigrants (or had family who were) and would not go to the police, they would be easy pickings. Faced with little alternative, some Salvadorans began forming gangs, essentially as mutual protection associations. MS-13 was one of these. But since, of course, they were victims of organized gang violence, this rapidly escalated on both sides (with the Salvadorans beginning to employ the sort of tactics learned "back home"). You all know where things stand today.

So, in effect, strict immigration policy, and rejection by the cultural mainstream, create a self-fulfilling prophecy of criminality and gang activity on the part of immigrants. (And even then it's a tiny minority.)

And, since we're talking about self-fulfilling prophecies, let's not forget that the aforementioned indigenous gangs would not exist were it not for prohibition of (some) drugs.

Basically, our government creates perverse incentive after perverse incentive, and uses the resulting friction to play various "tribes" off one another. This, by the way, doesn't require an active conspiracy; the perverse incentives are all there for government, too, which is systematically incentivized to behave this way as government is the one group which always comes out on top when groups of citizens (or "non-citizens", as it were) are pitted against one another.
 
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marshaul

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I don't think anyone has argued that government is the problem.

That's because I hadn't entered the thread yet.

I don't buy into all this xenophobia. American culture is dominant, and liberalism does work better than any other system yet implemented, and therefore it will come out on top.

I have the unshakable faith in these tenets that some of you have in your gods.

And government, as it happens, is precisely the problem.

(As an aside, a key aspect of American culture's dominance, which most others evidently lack, is its ability to evolve and change as it takes in other cultures, while still retaining its fundamental character and, in almost every case, being only better for the process. It effectively subsumes other, weaker cultures, digesting what is of value and regurgitating the chaff.)
 
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marshaul

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Also, as usual Charles has things precisely backwards.

He suggests, in effect, that if people abandon the tendency to governmentally enforce their whims on political minorities who behave differently, political conflict will increase.

He cites as evidence for this the fact that there is today less local discretion (or something), ignoring that correlation does not imply causation. I would argue, in contrast, that whatever the status of legislation and legal precedent, law enforcement in general has become more hyperactive than ever before, which means that even as some laws are "nationalized" and subsequently liberalized, more and more people are being prosecuted for violating the remaining laws than ever were in the past. And, each one of these people who is prosecuted and convicted not for a malum in se offense, but for a malum prohibitum, represents a victim of one group enforcing their whims upon another.

The modern development of the idea that the law must be a self-actuating and self-justifying instrument is partially responsible for the hyperactivity in law enforcement. (This idea, by the way, is fundamentally evil.) I think the secondary mechanism is obvious: people striving to take control of a single device by which they can simultaneously impose upon others, and protect themselves from such imposition, inherently pits tribes against one another, and increases factionalization and discord in society. Of course, all this adds further to the "hyperactivization" of police, thus creating a vicious cycle.

So, I do agree with Charles that there is conflict within society. But what he tacitly proposes -- to amplify the power of local majorities to impose their whims absent meaningful aggression -- will serve to encourage the problem we've identified. And really, all of this because he's terrified of copulation in the park. :rolleyes: (What was that word again? Oh yeah: puerile.)

Notice I did that without a wall of text or other forms of windbaggery.
 
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Citizen

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Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Most immigrant gangs are formed due to perverse incentives.

For instance, MS-13. It was started by a couple of Salvadoran immigrants who had been involved in the... troubles back home. In California at the time, the indigenous (mostly black) gangs intentionally preyed on hispanic immigrants, knowing that since many of them were illegal immigrants (or had family who were) and would not go to the police, they would be easy pickings. Faced with little alternative, some Salvadorans began forming gangs, essentially as mutual protection associations. MS-13 was one of these. But since, of course, they were victims of organized gang violence, this rapidly escalated on both sides (with the Salvadorans beginning to employ the sort of tactics learned "back home"). You all know where things stand today.

So, in effect, strict immigration policy, and rejection by the cultural mainstream, create a self-fulfilling prophecy of criminality and gang activity on the part of immigrants. (And even then it's a tiny minority.)

And, since we're talking about self-fulfilling prophecies, let's not forget that the aforementioned indigenous gangs would not exist were it not for prohibition of (some) drugs.

Basically, our government creates perverse incentive after perverse incentive, and uses the resulting friction to play various "tribes" off one another. This, by the way, doesn't require an active conspiracy; the perverse incentives are all there for government, too, which is systematically incentivized to behave this way as government is the one group which always comes out on top when groups of citizens (or "non-citizens", as it were) are pitted against one another.

Omigosh. Hadn't thought of it in those terms before. Great point.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County
+1Interesting.Trying to remember times when I've looked at a diverse group and saw them all as "Americans"I'm thinking 4th of July type occasionsI think I've slipped from being just opposed to the bastardization of patriotism to thinking negatively of patriotism entirely. Perhaps a return to supporting true patriotism, while maintaining the differentiation between what the government portrays as patriotism, would do me some good.
My family gatherings. We really don't seperate by ethnicity at all we range from Dark Black to pasty white, Polynesian and asians and first nation folks too. We are all Americans. I do get your point though and its a pet peeve of mine, I work with diverse ethnicities, Russians, Indians (from India) etc....when ever they use the term "american" they often are not referring to themselves. I tell them they can always leave if they like, or ask them if they plan on staying. Many have stopped doing that and now refer to themselves as American too. One Indian guy I worked for got some slack from his "community" for it. He ended up giving a big lecture at their temple that if they don't like being American and can't accept the existing culture here he'll buy them a one way ticket back......he has had no takers.
 

OC for ME

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The feds are not fullfilling their obligation to "protect" our 2A right from state level prior restraint, let alone federal prior restraint. This is not a melting pot/mixed salad issue. Clearly enumerated obligations are being ignored by the "state" and various American sub-cultures are fine with this.
 

utbagpiper

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Also, as usual Charles has things precisely backwards.

....

So, I do agree with Charles that there is conflict within society. But what he tacitly proposes -- to amplify the power of local majorities to impose their whims absent meaningful aggression -- will serve to encourage the problem we've identified. And really, all of this because he's terrified of copulation in the park. :rolleyes: (What was that word again? Oh yeah: puerile.)

Notice I did that without a wall of text or other forms of windbaggery.

And again, you are incapable of civil disagreement without getting in a few jabs of low-level personal insult. So very mature. And so sad that you resort to mis-representing my position rather than recognizing examples for what they are. It is a very weak position and weaker advocate who must resort to such tactics.

So you are opposed to diversity of States and communities, thinking the answer to conflict in society is for everyone to simply adopt a libertarian/anarchist position. Seems rather self-serving.

How is it materially different than suggesting everyone adopt a conservative, or liberal, or even socialist point of view?

If we all agreed as to the best way to order society, there would be no conflict.

The anarchists can't even articulate how a couple of specific conflicts would be resolved, with or without being verbose.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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I have the unshakable faith in these tenets that some of you have in your gods.

At least you've made that clear, finally. And it explains a lot.

Difference is, I don't presume to impose my modes of worship on others. What I take on faith is my burden, not yours.

Yet you would impose anarchy based on a faith that it works well having been unable to articulate how various conflicts would be resolved.

Charles
 

stealthyeliminator

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The anarchists can't even articulate how a couple of specific conflicts would be resolved, with or without being verbose.

Well, that's not true. You've been given several non-verbose versions. Verbose versions have been printed and reprinted. I believe this forum has rules against posting copyrighted material, so no, I'm not going to reprint the verbose versions here. You're a big boy, you can purchase books online, no parental supervision or authorization required.
 

ATM

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360
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Indiana, USA
...So you are opposed to diversity of States and communities, thinking the answer to conflict in society is for everyone to simply adopt a libertarian/anarchist position. Seems rather self-serving.

It is. It serves every self (individual) rather than a small group of elite selves serving themselves at others' expense.

How is it materially different than suggesting everyone adopt a conservative, or liberal, or even socialist point of view?

Those points of view typically vest power in a few to serve themselves at others' expense.

If we all agreed as to the best way to order society, there would be no conflict.

Nonsense, you're defining some sort of "utopia" which will never exist.

The anarchists can't even articulate how a couple of specific conflicts would be resolved, with or without being verbose.

You just can't shake the concept of vesting power in some supreme elite to have ultimate say in individuals' conflicts, can you?

A society of individuals can manage their conflicts collaboratively based solely upon the traditions of natural law without any man-made elites deemed necessary and thus worthy to violate it and enact their own law (ultimately to benefit themselves at others' expense).

This is not radical new ideology, it's timeless reason.
 

marshaul

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Interesting.

Trying to remember times when I've looked at a diverse group and saw them all as "Americans"

I'm thinking 4th of July type occasions

I think I've slipped from being just opposed to the bastardization of patriotism to thinking negatively of patriotism entirely. Perhaps a return to supporting true patriotism, while maintaining the differentiation between what the government portrays as patriotism, would do me some good.

Hey, I just noticed this post, or actually the last bit.

I have some thoughts on this myself. As you might gather from post 27, I love America. I've lived on both coasts, and traveled to a generous majority of the states. I love her people (individually), her culture, her industry, and her geography, flora and fauna. I've also traveled a fair amount abroad, and for all the faults I believe America needs to reform, I far prefer my country to any other.

What else to call myself but a patriot? And who can make a more impregnable claim to the same, and impugn or repudiate my own?

It's true that I am no apologist for the government which today rather resembles a fat tick on the edifice of America's more fundamental (and largely intellectual) institutions. But that government is no more the country than a homeowners association is the neighborhood.

And I would caution others against allowing their patriotism – their deep and abiding love for their country – to stand in the way of their civic duty to generally monitor – and when necessary reform – its institutions, and especially to question and constrain government.

It's also true that many people ignore this caution (indeed, many do willfully and some proudly), and that government uses its fallback appeal to "patriotism" as a shield against criticism and reform. Some people let their "patriotism" foster in them a dangerous and uncivilized tribalism. But there are other words for these tendencies: jingoism, chauvinism. I personally find nationalism the most apt; in one word it encompasses the systematic conflation of a nation-state (i.e., a government) with its people and with the land within its borders, and as well the conflation between love of the state and love of the country itself.

You and I are patriots.
 
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since9

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...the ProLife crowd wants to take away the right of a woman to choose what she does with her body, the ProChoice crowd would remove the unborn child's right to life...

Any thoughts?

Actually, you're incorrect on one of these positions: The ProLife crowd wants to take away the right of a woman to chose what she does with her baby's body. Distinctly separate DNA. Regardless of where they say they stand, let's be objective, shall we? The DNA doesn't magically transform into a third human being (mother and father being the first two) at birth. It's there from the moment of fertilization.

I think you've hit on an interesting aspect of the major source of disagreement: One side, the other, or both, is either in error, or intentionally distorts the truth to suit their position.

History shows that melting pots work when people dispense with the hidden agendas and get down to brass tacks. If they keep misrepresenting the truth, either intentionally or not, there will be more friction than melting.
 

OC for ME

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...

You and I are patriots.
If I were to accept your definition of patriot, then yes, we are.

patriot - noun pa·tri·ot \ˈpā-trē-ət, -ˌät, chiefly British ˈpa-trē-ət\: a person who loves and strongly supports or fights for his or her country.

Full Definition of PATRIOT: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests.
There seems to be a contradiction built into the "official" definition.

A patriot must be the servant of individual liberty.
 
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